Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Original poster

Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

378 replies

KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 17:58

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 04/07/2021 22:09

Gorgeouslilgirl
Hmm, can you do the work a surgeon does? No? They are not toddlers. But highly skilled professionals.

So stop bigging yourself as if you are managing “toddlers”. They are far, far more skilled tha you.

You are there to make their life easier. Not the other way around.

In other words, your are dispensable. They are indispensable.

Do you feel the same way about
Plumbers?
Electricians?
Car Mechanics?
Teachers?
Nurses?

Or can they all talk to you like shit because you can't do their job?

Gorgeouslilgirl · 04/07/2021 22:09

Managers are dispensable and fungible than Surveons. Unless you can perform an operation?

NHS managers are low quality as compared to their counterparts in other countries.

In the CMS and in Germany, for example, you need to be a doctor with an advanced management degree to go into most hospital and health based managerial roles.

Northernlurker · 04/07/2021 22:11

This is why I manage physicians not surgeons Grin

The awful behaviour is unacceptable and should not have been tolerated but that ship has sailed. You won't get anywhere with them giving them the contempt they currently deserve.

Have you shadowed them in theatre and on the wards? I would do that. Be very, very visible. They think managers are useless time wasters who come and go and don't care and don't achieve. I would sort out the chairs and I would book each of them a one to one ASAP re job plan. Learn what matters to them, fix sone small stuff and keep stating your agenda.

Original poster
KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 22:17

I have shadowed them in theatre, in clinics, during on calls both in the evening and at weekends.

I go out to bat for them all the time. This team have a reputation throughout our hospital and I have to defend their behaviour constantly. That doesn’t mean I can’t think they are awful bloody people privately

OP posts:
Original poster
KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 22:18

Managers in our department do come and go, in the last 5 years the longest lasted 18 months. All of them left because of the behaviour of the consultants. All of them

OP posts:
Ilovelblue · 04/07/2021 22:19

My neighbour is a nurse on a highly specialised ward and says the surgeons are generally wonderful with the patients and awful with staff or great with the staff and have an appalling bedside manner with the patients. She reckons it's rare you get one who is good with both staff and patients.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 04/07/2021 22:19

I don’t know any surgeons personally, but I do know that to qualify, you need AAA at A levels (at least), a 3 year Science degree, and then a further many years of pre led, specialisation etc etc.

I do, on the other hand know an NHS manager, CDE at A level, a nursing degree, transfer to management, and now earning 6 figures and thinks she is a gifted manager, despite still not being able to write literate sentences.

In most businesses, you respect your manager because they have probably done your job (or something similar) successfully. In the NHS, managers are generally ex nurses or management consultants. It must be tough to be managed by someone who has no clue what your job consists of, but sees you as a tool to accomplish their aims.

CocoStar555 · 04/07/2021 22:21

It's another male dominated profession. I somehow can't imagine a female surgeon behaving in this way.

Cloverleaf20 · 04/07/2021 22:24

My husband is a surgeon and yes he’s arrogant at how well he can do his operations, exactly the sort of surgeon I would want to operate on me . He gets pay £100,000 a year for 25 years of training, long hours and on calls . Your post is very rude !

IdblowJonSnow · 04/07/2021 22:24

I don't see why have unshakable confidence has to equate with being a rude twat.

Agree, the majority of surgeons/consultants I've met have been rude assholes. Luckily I'm more than capable of advocating for myself but so many people aren't when ill/anxious/scared.

WhatisanODP · 04/07/2021 22:26

@Cloverleaf20

My husband is a surgeon and yes he’s arrogant at how well he can do his operations, exactly the sort of surgeon I would want to operate on me . He gets pay £100,000 a year for 25 years of training, long hours and on calls . Your post is very rude !
Your husband couldn’t do it without the scrub and ODPs though 👀
frumpety · 04/07/2021 22:26

In most businesses, you respect your manager because they have probably done your job (or something similar) successfully

Did something completely unrelated prior to qualifying as a nurse and I would say that statement isn't neccessarily true, or at least the successfully bit anyway.

RedLollyYellow · 04/07/2021 22:27

My brother is a consultant surgeon.

I watched the metamorphosis from human to superhuman Hmm, luckily he becomes himself again after he spends a few days with his family.

To an extent I do agree that self belief is a necessary part of the job.

This is a generalisation; I've noticed that the female surgeons I have met tend to be less arrogant. I think that the old guard will retire and the next generation will hopefully be more approachable.

frumpety · 04/07/2021 22:29

@WhatisanODP

Your husband couldn’t do it without the scrub and ODPs though

He could but his mortality figures would be through the roof Wink

gemloving · 04/07/2021 22:29

Mine cut out my baby and asked if she could have a cuddle - loved her!!

Cloverleaf20 · 04/07/2021 22:31

@WhatisanODP absolutely and he be the first to agree with you. The generalisation of surgeons in this post is ridiculous. You get arseholes in all fields of work not just surgery !

youvegottenminuteslynn · 04/07/2021 22:34

A certain level of god complex is arguably necessary to have the confidence to have someone's life in your hands. I can imagine surgeon could absolutely an arsehole to work with but I owe him my life. Apparently he's nicer to people the less senior they are which makes me think he doesn't like to feel threatened by who he views as peers. My case was complicated and at first I thought he viewed me as interesting and 'worthy' of his interest but I realised it was just my unusual case and I could have been anyone 😂 luckily I don't have a surgeon level ego!

o8T8o · 04/07/2021 22:35

Interesting if alarming thread!

youvegottenminuteslynn · 04/07/2021 22:35

@youvegottenminuteslynn

A certain level of god complex is arguably necessary to have the confidence to have someone's life in your hands. I can imagine surgeon could absolutely an arsehole to work with but I owe him my life. Apparently he's nicer to people the less senior they are which makes me think he doesn't like to feel threatened by who he views as peers. My case was complicated and at first I thought he viewed me as interesting and 'worthy' of his interest but I realised it was just my unusual case and I could have been anyone 😂 luckily I don't have a surgeon level ego!
Mine had been an ex army surgeon and worked under incredibly difficult circumstances in war zones so I think I subconsciously allowed him more of a pass than I would have in my head with others.
Unihorn · 04/07/2021 22:35

I'm glad to see Grey's Anatomy was accurate in some ways Grin

Welloff · 04/07/2021 22:35

£100,000 is presumably the nhs pay before overtime and excluding private fees?

It’s a great wage even before the generation - but it’s not yacht money.

coronafiona · 04/07/2021 22:37

IME (industry) it varies by speciality. Cardiac tend to be the rudest. You have to earn your stripes over a couple of years.

Loshad · 04/07/2021 22:39

Years ago in my previous career I used to have one ( different) surgeon every year to teach mol biol. only had one that wasn’t a total arrogant prick. Had hope it might have changed, but
DS2 is a very junior doctor and his tales of the surgeons are hysterical, his first rotation the consultant surgeons had to go to compulsory mediation meetings every week as they spent the entire time undermining each other to patients and the other staff.

Ulyssesfoot · 04/07/2021 22:42

I work with a lot of surgeons. I agree they need to be confident but they don't need to be dicks. Most of them are usually lovely, especially the more senior ones.
I tend to find the attitude worst in the really junior ones who are trying to find their feet and don't always know exactly what they're at.
Different specialties are definitely friendlier than others though.

Loshad · 04/07/2021 22:44

@Cloverleaf20
Why does your DH only get £100k after a 25 year career?
My DH is a consultant, not surgical ( so generally less income) no private work and currently being stuffed by his trust over on call payments ( 5 year running battle) and gets considerably more than that. You don’t help your case by downplaying the very generous salaries ( and holidays-DH gets 7 weeks plus 2 weeks study leave pa, as will your DH is he has worked for the NHS for that length of time).