Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

[KirtonandKim]

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

Unfortunately that’s just what surgeons are like! I’ve worked with them too. They have to be hugely self-confident/arrogant/have a god complex to do what they do. They don’t think “soft skills” (like being nice) are important, as long as their surgical results are good. Some surgeons are the exception to this, of course.

Doesn’t mean you have to endure it though. If everyone else who has worked with them leaves after a few months, I’d be doing the same.

Anaesthetists are usually lovely though.

They need to be supremely confident and decisive. Not really characteristics id want in a partner or group of people I had to manage but it seems to get results in theatre.

@KirtonandKim and once upon a time 25 years ago I was you, exactly the same. I was incensed at how they treated their staff, pissed away NHS money on stuff they didn’t need (but could have because somehow money was always found for what they wanted). We had one that we would fly in from another country to work and he would bitch about the £700 a time flight and then being paid over £100k.

I ended up with an ulcer and burning out of the NHS. I loved working for the NHS but never ever again. Nothing ever changes there.

Re your last comment OP - it's your attitude that is causing you this distress.

I do get it, many of them behave appallingly and for sure have a God complex. But as many wise people have noted above, this comes with the job they do.

You can neither fight it or change it. You can accept it and work with it and do the best job you can. Or resign. But spending your life raging about it is only going to hurt you, not them. I wish you much patience!

The surgeon I've met is the most spectacular human ever. Barristers and solicitors on the other hand...

I was about to jump in and tell you yabu, as my last surgeon was lovely, and so he was, to me.

Then I recall two incidents while I was in hospital. The registrar was doing their rounds and he came to my bed, swiftly followed by a nurse who said "oh, this is mr xxx patient". To which he replied "I'd better leave you alone then"

Second incident, surgeon was trying to ascertain if my lung had fully inflated and if my tubes could be removed. He was kneeling by the side of my bed watching the container my tubes were draining into. He asked me to cough, I coughed, he asked me to do it again, and demonstrated the type of cough he wanted. He then laughed and asked if it helped that he was coughing too. I told him it would only help if he also had a ten inch scar down his back. The nurse stood slightly behind him murmured that that could be arranged.

So while he was great with me, I guess other staff members were not so actually enamoured of him.

So on balance, you may well be right.

Hospital manager here. Im in my forties and been in senior management for over 12 years. I share your pain. Unfortunately I've found i have to put on a big strong persona to get what I want done - drains my energy sometimes. Also, I've said no to a few things so they are grateful when I agree. I work by winning a few of them over then getting a few others to join the splinter group. Then the rest I pick off one by one. It took me a few years but they all know me now.

I work with them and max fax ones are the worst I've found- double qualified and doublely arrogant

I’ve only met one (my son’s). Before the first attempt at getting him in theatre, he helped me run round the hospital car park, trying to find runaway son (ASD), complete with his surgeon’s gowns and wellies.

After second attempt (sedation on arrival), he came to see me after the operation and looked shaken - it took 5 times as long as he’d thought...

Consultant surgeons are the products of a prolonged and arduous selection process that rewards sharp-elbowed competitiveness above almost all other traits. People who make it through this selection process are often not intrinsically well-suited to the give and take of long term professional relationships.

Surgeons are in the unfortunate position of being held personally accountable for their patients’ outcomes, yet having to work in a progressively deteriorating NHS environment over which they perceive they have ever less control. There can be considerable resentment when managers try and impose their own priorities but are not perceived to have the same level of accountability for outcomes that they do.

Surgeons carry enormous responsibility, and have many responsibilities which they will be unwilling or unable to delegate. There is a social pressure to appear supremely confident but many surgeons are intrinsically very stressed and anxious people, and this can find outlets in perceived bad behaviour.

Most surgeons have made enormous personal sacrifices to get where they are in their careers - their working patterns were much more easily supported in the days when surgeons were men and either remained bachelors or their wives stayed at home and managed the domestic sphere. Everyone has struggled to balance work and life pressures over the last year and it is probably that the OP’s surgeons will not have been immune to this.

As a result of this combination of personalities and pressures, dysfunctional working relationships, feeling hard done-by co-workers, and spectacular bust-ups are not all that uncommon in surgical specialties. The OP’s unit does sound perhaps at the far end of the spectrum, and I wonder if it is more than can be more than reasonably expected for one person to turn this toxic mess around. There will be many sides to this tale of woe.

Perhaps the Trust is going to have to invest in the involvement of mediators and psychologists to find a productive and amicable way forward?

DOI: anaesthetist

From my small personal experience I think it might also be affected by the specialty. I don’t know what Amy of these surgeons were like with staff.

Paediatric surgeons were great (appendix/broken arm). They talked to me as well as my parents who are both doctors.

Adult orthopaedics surgeon (hip) not bad, but would talk over my head to my parents or other doctors then deign to explain things when I asked.

Vascular brilliant, calm, but arrogant

Neurosurgeon, brilliant at the actual surgery, arrogant. However could tell he cared. When my surgery was first scheduled he seemed quite boastful told me none of his patients had died having my surgery. At the last consent he had to tell me two had died in that year and I could tell he cared about every one of them as an individual.

@gingerbiscuit19

Unfortunately it is surgeons. I've also worked with a lot of consultants and they are mostly (bar a few) the same. Arrogant and entitled! I'm not sure if it's because the job is so difficult they just have to be dicks to get through it?

Nah, it's because the only people who can survive the pre-existing culture of fuckwittery are other arrogant arseholes with the social skills of a mosquito.

The only surgeon I have had much contact with was a breast surgeon. Caring, compassionate, excellent bedsiide manner. A woman though. I wonder if this is unusual?

Now my consultant Rheumatologist on the other hand, though not a surgeon is the most arrogant, patronising misogynist I have had the misfortune to meet.

Oh, I find them easy to work with. But then, I worked with solicitors for decades. I just laugh at their antics. So many are so childish.

I've met some truly dishish surgeons. The guy who did my appendix messed up my scar and it now looks like a second belly button , when I said it to him he very replied in a nasty tone , nobody is going to see it so what does it matter, I was 15. The guy who took out my wisdom teeth was so nasty he reduced me to tears and two nurses had to talk me into getting it done and calm me down, all I asked him was I going to get stitches. The last surgeon I met was lovely though, he did surgery on my finger and honestly was such a gentle and kind man, took time to reassure me as I was worried about having the use of my finger after. Weirdly the nice surgeon was a professor , one of the best in his field and a far older man than the two previous, I wonder had he just grown out of the cockiness.

What's the difference between God & a surgeon?

God doesn't believe he's a surgeon.

I’d do this:

Firstly check out with your own line manager, HR director and medical director for the Trust how far they are prepared to to manage poor behaviour, including bullying and harassment “if you should find evidence of this”. Ask if the appropriate policy will be followed and send them copies of the policy. Explain that you are concerned that this could be the cause of poor staff retention. Get the response in email/writing.

If they easily assure you that yes, they will follow it etc etc then you can take that as a green light.

Detail everything and escalate it all as per policy. Manage the shit out of them. The surgeons won’t like you but you might find that you get more support outside of the team than you’d expect.

If you get a very woolly response to your email then either appease them if you can bear it or leave if you can’t!

I've dealt with a few Consultant through work who can be arrogant cocks, demanding to speak to a GP.

Errr, no. I'll have to see if one is free.

Speaking GP's, they can be stroppy fuckers too.

I think a lot of problems in the hospitals would disappear if you stopped making people work 12hr shifts and made the working week 40hrs long. No overtime, no staying late.

Go to work, work, fuck off home.

You can’t expect people to work the long shift patterns like this & not be arseholes.

Totally agree with you OP, after working in the NHS the stories I could tell would horrify most people. I'd never work with them again, not for all the money in the world.

Our neurosurgeon (aka a brain surgeon) is the nicest man imaginable. Lovely to staff and patients. Some surgeons can be rather odd though, but I thought they would have improved from the old days.

One of most down-to-earth people I’ve met is a legal 500 commercial barrister - the guy is a genius and brilliant human being but you’d not guess that from how he carries himself. I’m sure a lot of barristers are arsheholes though.

There is a spectrum of arrogance. Breast probably the least arrogant. Cardio thoracic, neuro and vascular the absolute worst.

These surgeons have had nearly 12 months with no work. Their electives were all cancelled, they didn’t do outpatient appointments, they refused to be redeployed elsewhere. 12 months of being paid a shit ton of money for nothing. Now they have the audacity to complain they are being asked to partake in a recovery programme and temporarily change their job plans. Just flat out refusal. Do you know how many times I hear the word “BMA” in one day. What makes it worse is that the two surgeons who are happy to adapt have been shut down by the rest of them and told not to cross the imaginary bloody picket line.

God complex

Boys' club

Psychopath

Narcissist

Other unpleasant personality trait

Upbringing/schooling/family background

Believing the hype

Any combo of the above, plus others

*NASALT of course 🤣