Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

[KirtonandKim]

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

The Surgeons I meet in my job are like this brilliant arrogant and supremely confident and I agree that unfortunately they need to be like this and have unlimited self belief otherwise they couldn’t do what we need them to do.

Luckingfovely
Re your last comment OP - it's your attitude that is causing you this distress.

But that is blaming the OP for someone else's poor behaviour.

The problem is all those saying things like

'its just X'
'it goes with the job'

The plan truth is that those that do this are arseholes, and they do it because so many people have let them get away with it for so long.

I worked with a group of 4 surgeons. The top one was unbearable... the full package stereotype

But the other 3 were genuinely lovely people. Reasonable, balanced, kind, friendly and warm... the opposite of the head guy. They were all top, pioneering surgeons too... hugely successful

I think a lot of the problem is that they are at the pinnacle of their career, incredibly gifted and frankly don't see why they should be managed by anyone.
They see themselves as the CEO of their speciality so why should anyone question their practice.

I am pretty confident that degree of arseholery and surgical skill are not linked. There are some dickheads who are brilliant and some who I wouldn't let operate on my cat. There are some who are lovely and brilliant, and some who are lovely and....less brilliant.

@HmmmmmmInteresting

*I do know one absolutely LOVELY surgeon if that makes you feel any better. All the staff love him. He was once stopped from mopping his theatre after surgery 😂*

See, I wouldn't want this guy to do my op

You really would. He’s outstanding.

I generally like surgeons but I’ve had the misfortune to work with one or two who were memorably nasty. I think if someone brings a lot to the department, they can get away with a certain amount of treating others like crap.

I know people under pressure need to blow off steam but taking it out on colleagues is shitty.

Vascular surgeons are the worst! Vile.
ENT I have found mostly young and really nice
Urology fantastic

I also knew a surgeon he did general surgery mostly hernia ops but also a lot of breast surgery. He was the loveliest most patient man. He was married to a nurse . I have also had the misfortune of speaking to a very mean abrupt vascular surgeon ( female ) who would throw notes around !

@KirtonandKim

“ My only advice is try and make their lives as easy as possible, get them whatever they want and then they tend to be bearable. Just let all the other crap go in one ear and out the other, it saves your stress levels so much”

I’ve heard this advice before. I absolutely 100% bloody well will not bend down to these people. What do you do with a toddler throwing a tantrum? Ignore ignore ignore. Why am I bribing someone to do their actual job?! Fuck that

“Toddler throwing a tantrum”?!! Hmm, can you do the work a surgeon does? No? They are not toddlers. But highly skilled professionals.

So stop bigging yourself as if you are managing “toddlers”. They are far, far more skilled tha you.

You are there to make their life easier. Not the other way around.

In other words, your are dispensable. They are indispensable.

Not T&O I’m afraid!

Oh now my vascular surgeons are all lovely - brilliantly brilliant.
Orthopaedic and HPB are a different kettle of fish

Also not Cardio!

@paintedpanda

One of the surgeons at my place told us that there are two types of surgeon - bastards, and slow bastards 🤷🏼‍♀️

Hilarious 😂😂

Also I am not sure if you have a handle of the last 50 years of changes within surgical training. It is part of why they are probably as they are.
No one should be an arsehole. No one should throw things. But until you understand why they are angry you will achieve nothing

@Gorgeouslilgirl
You have absolutely nailed it - even though their behaviour may be poor at times, their skillset is required and the managers can be interchangeable.

I’ve had no issue working with surgeons. Of any specialty. I guess. Because they respect my qualifications and expertise.

If they think you are a pencil pusher and a waste if their time, they will I’ll have no qualms showing it.

My advice /

• Earn their respect, instead of trying to assume you know better and they are “toddlers” you need to herd

I work in one of the specialities renowned for being spectacularly nice.

However I can still confirm there are massive bullies in it and that just because you saw a consultant and they were amazing to your face doesn't mean they aren't vile to their trainees/nurses/colleagues or rude about you when you aren't there.

Who these people are is widely known, often nationwide.

@OldKingCole

Are you serious when you say they get paid £100K - surely they get paid much, much more??

I thought that!

Maybe £100K is NHS wage & supplemented by private work?

True, @JMAngel1. I have to roll my eyes at self-important ‘managers’ who assume they are more in tune with patient interests, than medics actually treating patients!
I really think most managers should be doctors with an MBA, rather than the low quality managers NHS is chock full of.

My uncle had a AAA repair at oxford under vascular. Fabulous team, and my uncle is still fixed 6 years later.

I recognised the reg a couple of years later at a different trust where I worked.

I think I stared and got a “what do you want” while he was seeing a patient in A&E. totally spoke down to me and was really rude.

I muttered “I think you fixed my uncles AAA at X hospital”

God didn’t he change in an instant. When I said my uncles name he was like “Oh the man that rides a bicycle and takes photographs of wildlife”

I was like Yup that’s the one. Asked after my uncle and learnt my name after that. Couldn’t have been more nice every time I saw him 😆

“Toddler throwing a tantrum”?!!
Hmm, can you do the work a surgeon does? No? They are not toddlers. But highly skilled professionals.

So stop bigging yourself as if you are managing “toddlers”. They are far, far more skilled tha you.

You are there to make their life easier. Not the other way around.

In other words, your are dispensable. They are indispensable.

Managers aren't there to make medics' lives easier, what a simplistic view And the best teams never work on the basis that some people are more dispensable than others. Everyone should be treated with equal respect.

@HmmmmmmInteresting no do not google it , you keep that mind of yours pure, it's best that way.

Half their problem is that even with their NHS salary plus private work, they earn less than top lawyers, accountants and bankers. So a bit of chip gets added to the arrogance. Neither does the NHS culture help where the public are supposed to be grateful because it's free.

They also get away with it because they are allowed to.

I do actually think the majority of even the most arrogant and egotistical surgeons are doing what is best for their patients. Even if they arent very good at communicating this, even if they arent that pleasant to their junior staff or nurses/theatre staff. (There are obviously exceptions)

They don't always give a shit about other peoples patients, but their own patients they are trying to do whats best for them.

Ultimately if you are a surgeon what you can do best is operate on your patients, and that involves theatre time and beds and other staff to facilitate this. And theres not enough of this to go around all the specialities. Often within the NHS I find theres lots of barriers to providing good care for my patients, and it can be frustrating.