Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

[KirtonandKim]

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

Cardio thoracic, neuro and vascular the absolute worst.

I dated a neuro reg once. The worst decision ive ever made. He once came to my department (I was an A+E nurse at the time) "to see what I did with my time" and "why the department was so busy and maybe he could help manage it so it was more efficient". I didnt date him for long.

I went out with one, too. He was brilliant and had quite a dark personality but he was amazing in bed.

Tbf they play God so an ego probably does develop.
I've had a few ops particularly when younger & one was so horrible to me. I dared to ask how bad the scar would be as it was on a visible body area & he told me not to be so vain & would I rather die. I was only 15, it's normal to be self conscious!!!

The surgeons I work closely with I can honestly say are all lovely. I never hear a bad word about any of them from patients either, only positive things.

Although one of my colleagues is married to a gastro surgeon and he does have a reputation for being an arse!

Those of you saying how lovely your surgeons are to you, this is what almost makes me believe they genuinely are psychologically unstable,

I’ve seen and heard them spin on a dime and become utterly charming to patients after behaving horrendously to colleagues. I’ve heard them talk about patients, heard them tell me they will not see or speak to certain patients before surgery and then on the day smile and hold their hand.

Utter psychopaths!

Oh god.

Trauma and Orthopaedics Shudder

Scrubbed for one the other day. He was such a diva. He screamed at a scrub nurse because she asked a perfectly relevant question.

The rest of the team were too scared to say a word.

When I moved to theatres from the ED I knew orthopaedics were gonna be the worst…

They are.

@KirtonandKim

Those of you saying how lovely your surgeons are to you, this is what almost makes me believe they genuinely are psychologically unstable,

I’ve seen and heard them spin on a dime and become utterly charming to patients after behaving horrendously to colleagues. I’ve heard them talk about patients, heard them tell me they will not see or speak to certain patients before surgery and then on the day smile and hold their hand.

Utter psychopaths!

To be honest, I imagine plenty of surgeons would have quite a lot to say about hospital managers. Your hospital seems particularly poorly managed if your surgeons have all been on paid leave throughout the pandemic.

I have never met a not nice anaesthetist, some have been a little odd, but generally if the shit hits the fan you want one around.

Surgeons, a mixed bunch, what I find interesting is the difference in bedside manner described by people who are NHS/private of exactly the same surgeon. DF went to see one of the worst offenders of brusque and disinterested bedside manner at a private appointment and came back singing his praises about what a lovely chap he was. Same surgeon at the bedside in the NHS frequently reduced his patients to tears. Can't imagine why the personality transformation occured ?

However I’ve been in theatres where there ppl have definitely imbibed the night before, so I’m not sure what point I’m making.

A few friends in our social group are surgeons and senior consultants. We’ve known most of them since they were undergrads with curtain fringes and provisional driving licences. It’s never occurred to me that they may be like this to their colleagues and patients. But now I come to think of it, I bet a couple are. They are just about hold their own in the rather boisterous social dynamic, but if any of them attempted a god complex they’d be royally put back in they place. Given they are outnumbered by commercial lawyers, bankers and Westminster types, I guess it’s all relative.

The surgeons were operating, they carried on with cancer work (not our speciality), emergency surgery (AAA & trauma etc), all electives were cancelled for a long time. They had the option to be redeployed. They refused. They had the option to do virtual appointments - they refused. They had the option to do elective surgery at the private hospital - they refused. Each time citing the BMA and why they shouldn’t have to change job plans.

Tomorrow, call the worst one an unspeakable cunt and see what he does.

@frumpety

I have never met a not nice anaesthetist, some have been a little odd, but generally if the shit hits the fan you want one around.

Surgeons, a mixed bunch, what I find interesting is the difference in bedside manner described by people who are NHS/private of exactly the same surgeon. DF went to see one of the worst offenders of brusque and disinterested bedside manner at a private appointment and came back singing his praises about what a lovely chap he was. Same surgeon at the bedside in the NHS frequently reduced his patients to tears. Can't imagine why the personality transformation occured ?

Ah the Anaesthetists are fab.

And they aren’t scared to put a surgeon in their place 😁

I feel your pain.

I had the most appalling shift with a rather well known chap recently and ended up reporting him to the chief of surgery.

Let's just say even his hand hygiene needed attention

I have never, in all the belittling, humiliating, exhausting years in the NHS been spoken to the way he spoke to me.

I work within the nhs as a graphic designer. I have created many digital presentations and videos for surgeons attending seminars and suchlike. Without fail, they have all been easy to deal with and extremely grateful for their artwork - many of them emailing me to express their gratitude.

On the other hand, some of the nurses and admin staff requiring work, have been quite prickly and difficult... some, not all

@KirtonandKim

The surgeons were operating, they carried on with cancer work (not our speciality), emergency surgery (AAA & trauma etc), all electives were cancelled for a long time. They had the option to be redeployed. They refused. They had the option to do virtual appointments - they refused. They had the option to do elective surgery at the private hospital - they refused. Each time citing the BMA and why they shouldn’t have to change job plans.

This I believe. I didn’t see any of the consultant surgeons redeployed during covid. Apparently they all refused!

All of ours did. Flatly refused. One complained that his PA had been redeployed to a medicine ward to help out with ward calls - who was going to open his post?!

@WhatisanODP

Many of ours were redeployed to do bedside nursing in ITU. Most of them really enjoyed it too.

A lot of people seem ready to excuse arrogance and poor behaviour as an acceptable downside to surgical brilliance. It’s just not that simple - bullying and poor behaviour affects the quality of learning in a team and can have potentially catastrophic effects on patient outcomes.

Are you serious when you say they get paid £100K - surely they get paid much, much more??

I have seen a few surgeons lately, gynae and breast. One loved himself so much, he didn’t have much capacity for dealing with patients, one was so brusque to the point of rudeness and gave me the worst experience of my life and one was lovely both private and NHS and I’d recommend them to anyone.
My friend is a consultant ENT surgeon and she is a little brusque, but adores her job.

A colleague of mine was charged with turning around a major regional hospital that had brought some negative attention on the government. The main issue was the neurosurgeons. He brought in military surgeons and had them lead every cool operation until he broke the attitude. I also saw him spectacularly out-tantrum one of them in a corridor. Hospital now doing very well, and they certainly won’t forget him

@frumpety

I have never met a not nice anaesthetist, some have been a little odd, but generally if the shit hits the fan you want one around.

Surgeons, a mixed bunch, what I find interesting is the difference in bedside manner described by people who are NHS/private of exactly the same surgeon. DF went to see one of the worst offenders of brusque and disinterested bedside manner at a private appointment and came back singing his praises about what a lovely chap he was. Same surgeon at the bedside in the NHS frequently reduced his patients to tears. Can't imagine why the personality transformation occured ?

There was a thread about this on one of the doctors forums I read.

Imagine working in a place for two years, and having to ask for things like equipment, for the diathermy to be plugged in, for a particular instrument, a particular suture. every. single time.

That's what its like in the NHS. I did one theatre list in the private sector during covid and it was like the staff were telepathic, never worked with them before and they anticipated every part of the surgery, ready with the next instrument.

The NHS, I wouldn't work anywhere else, but it doesn't half grind you down.

@HmmmmmmInteresting why wouldn't you want him to do the op?

Ds had orthopaedic surgery with the most amazing surgeon. He was fantastic with both ds and us. Excellent explanations, endlessly patient, took huge trouble to make sure we all understood everything. It was fairly complex surgery so we saw him many times over a 4 year period.

A couple of years later, I was working in the same hospital and his reputation with the juniors was awful! A complete tyrant. They would be grey with fear before seeing him.

I was really shocked! Great with patients and parents - terrible, terrible teacher.

I'm a surgical registrar and I don't think all surgeons are arrogant arseholes. Some specialities are worse than others (neurosurgeons I'm looking at you) but I definitely have dealt with my fair share of egotistical men

I think its a mix of things. You have to fight incredibly hard to get to your consultant post, its an awful lot of training. And they are very very skilled and qualified. Many will have a PhD plus obviously the endless exams it takes to become a consultant surgeon. Its a lot of work and you have to make a lot of sacrifices, they will have spent the majority of their 20s and 30s working and training and essentially devoting their life to their speciality

Its also a bit if a self fulfilling prophecy, arrogant men favour arrogant juniors. Theres an elbows out culture where you have to fight for theatre time and therefore training time. In order to perform surgeries you have to be confident and essentially present your case to your seniors and all of this favours arrogant men. Plus it takes a lot of self confidence to perform a surgery, because if you fuck up you could kill someone. To trust that your surgical ability is good enough to perform a surgery you've never done before on a real person takes a lot of self confidence.

Then there's the abuse of junior staff, most consultants were treated poorly as a junior and so then take this out on their juniors and again its a viscous cycle

On top of this when you are performing a surgery you are concentrating entirely on the surgery and so everything else goes out the window. Its a very high stress environment. They are used to aggressive, high stress situations