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Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

378 replies

KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 17:58

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

OP posts:
Hairymoohead · 04/07/2021 19:07

I don't believe that this is what surgeons have to be like - I think this is what we believed they had to be like and we have recruited the mould. I have met surgeons socially and professionally - the arrogant arses - I do not choose to spend time with in any capacity - and fortunately for me - I have the choice!

KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 19:08

They then have the nerve to hold a 15 minute meeting because they want better fucking office chairs. Our patients have been fucked for 12 months and they won’t budge an inch but they’ll meet for 15 mins to moan about chairs.

God I’m annoyed today

OP posts:
CupcakesK · 04/07/2021 19:08

Overheard a surgeon on a hospital ward once:

“only two people can save you; me and God. God’s busy today”

Also knew a surgeon who threw urine pots at junior doctors who weren’t up to his ‘standard’

Although, I find some specialities of surgeon are far worse than others and definitely the culture of the department has a lot to do with who is hired and how they act while there.

Oblomov21 · 04/07/2021 19:10

OP is being too generalised.
No doubt some surgeons are twats. Some are assholes. Many people are, in every walk of life.
Not all.

My diabetic consultant of 20 years, retired, she had the same staff, 6 of them that I knew of, for 20 years.

My recent shoulder consultant who did my recent surgery, is considered to be one of the best at what he dies, is one of the loveliest men I've ever met, is praised by all patients, his secretary of years, and 2 staff said he was lovely and they'd worked for him for years.

MontagueLeo · 04/07/2021 19:11

The surgeons might have done less than their usual volume of work over the last 12 months, but the anaesthetists will have been run ragged on COVID itu. Who’s going to anaesthetise for this catch up plan? Perhaps your surgeons are looking out for their colleagues?

user1497207191 · 04/07/2021 19:11

Read”Whistle in the wind” to read how some consultants behave and how management let them get away with it.

Tangled22 · 04/07/2021 19:14

@FrDamo

God complex

Boys' club

Psychopath

Narcissist

Other unpleasant personality trait

Upbringing/schooling/family background

Believing the hype

Any combo of the above, plus others

*NASALT of course 🤣

100% this.

Also agree with OP about vascular surgeons being the worst. I’m still mentally recovering from briefly working for a vascular surgeon (I didn’t last a year. Fed up of being shouted at in meetings.) Arrogant, bully, and for all the reasons above (boys club/narcissist/family background/schooling etc etc).

FlyingBattie · 04/07/2021 19:14

I don't thin it's all surgeons, but I think you've got a very hard job ahead of you with this bunch- because the culture of where you are sounds very long standing and toxic.
Ultimately, you can not change people.

Codswallop20 · 04/07/2021 19:15

Is that you goaty?

If it isn't I've had the same conversation this weekend about managing surgeons.

Life is too short to spend all your time stressed to hell.

Management skills are transferrable, leave the NHS. Best thing I ever did.

welshweasel · 04/07/2021 19:16

I’m a surgeon and the vast majority of my colleagues are very pleasant people. Or maybe I have no insight and we’re all arrogant arseholes!

I would say that departments tend to appoint more people like them, so a department full of dickheads will appoint more of them.

If I threw something at someone I would rightly be sacked. Shouting isn’t tolerated either.

I don’t know where you work but other than the two months last year where we stopped elective surgery we have continued to operate throughout the pandemic, as well as taking on extra work to support other departments. I’d be pretty upset to hear one of my managers talk about me like this.

Carameljack · 04/07/2021 19:16

You have to be pretty arrogant to be able to cut people open and know you can fix them. Shame it makes them such arseholes to work with.

KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 19:17

They are in constant running battles with the anaesthetists, I can assure you they aren’t protecting them!

OP posts:
SilverOtter · 04/07/2021 19:18

I think unfortunately it is a career that does tend to attract that arrogant, god-complex type of person. Then as they rise up through the ranks, they get more and more detached from reality and more and more caught up in their own hubris.

KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 19:19

Our theatres were taken over as ICU beds. Surgeons did not do elective work for a long time. They had the option to operate at a private hospital on NHS patients - some did, some didn’t

OP posts:
AColdDuncanGoodhew · 04/07/2021 19:19

I’ve worked with surgeons for a long time, a lot are twats, anaesthetists have always been far friendlier, although you get twats in every aspect of life. Max fax surgeons were the friendliest bunch I worked with, really down to earth lovely people.

Hairymoohead · 04/07/2021 19:19

And know how one of my medic flatmates were treated when she was training - I could not believe how shit her bosses were - not really giving a shit (didn't want to get up) when she thought people were dying. Funnily enough now she is in charge of the dept - the consultants she is in charge of are demanding the staff suck up to them, clean up their lunch mess, shit they drop on the floor and she is having none of it!Grin

MontagueLeo · 04/07/2021 19:21

You do sound rather partisan and unable to see both sides of the issue OP.

It is improbable that the surgeons have done absolutely nothing for 12 months, as they will have continued to admit and manage emergencies, cancer work and some other urgent cases.

The inflexibility that you are railing against sounds like a result of goodwill having run out. Why is that?

A contract exists for the protection of both parties and the trust has no right to insist that consultants re-arrange their working lives. Negotiation is about finding win-wins. What would the surgeons like to see on return for making the adjustments that you want?

SlipperyDippery · 04/07/2021 19:22

YABVU to generalise in this way. Surgeon 2 and 3 sound horrible, but there are arseholes in any profession. I’m not sure why you object to surgeon 1 because he’s absolutely right. He could earn a lot more money for a lot less work as a surgeon in Australia - my husband is a surgeon here, my cousin is a surgeon on East Coast Australia. Be a bit careful saying fuck off to Australia then because plenty of NHS doctors have (or had before covid anyway!)

My husband does oncology. You would not believe how hard he works. He’s in the hospital for around 12 hours then gets home and does several hours more work catching up on admin etc. His job is so much harder because stuff just never seems to go right in the NHS, which isn’t a comment on the individuals he works with necessarily (although some are lazy), but when stuff goes wrong, patients suffer, which is his responsibility not the person who forgot to order the pre op bloods or whatever. So he tries to ensure that it doesn’t go wrong, for the patient’s sake.

For example, if he has say 3 cases on his list, if the list is delayed then the third case gets cancelled for lack of time. That’s someone with cancer who may well have come off chemo for this operation, who may well have waited ages because of the pandemic. So he fights hard to get that patient done (even though it’s less work for him to cut the list short and just do 2). So yes, he will leave very clear instructions about what he wants done to ensure that patient is ready when they are sent for because too often, things are delayed when instructions aren’t followed. And patients suffer.

That’s one example, there are loads of things that he needs to be done right by those around him in order to him to be able to treat people effectively. I would hope he is never rude but I also don’t doubt lots of people think surgeons wanting stuff done right (and being firm about asking for it) accounts for some of the slagging off this thread has seen.

If you want surgeons to be meek and mild and not demand high standards in an ever deteriorating context of working in the NHS, then please bear in mind the effect it will have on patient outcomes. I am conscious that many NHS staff are overworked, under appreciated and underpaid. And it’s shit. But surgeons still have to do their best for the patients.

It doesn’t excuse speaking to your PA like shut or throwing things, but the generalisations about surgeons on this thread are a bit much when the plenty of surgeons that I know are just working incredibly hard to properly discharge the massive responsibility they hold and work in an environment where you often need to be firm for anything to get done.

SlipperyDippery · 04/07/2021 19:25

@KirtonandKim

They are in constant running battles with the anaesthetists, I can assure you they aren’t protecting them!
That’s interesting because the surgeons I speak to (and it’s hardly a weight adjusted national survey I realise) are usually the ones who want to stay late to get the list finished and the anaesthetists say no, they have to leave.
YouokHun · 04/07/2021 19:26

A (semi jokey) Description I heard on the radio of how the NHS grade the level of severity of an incident (it says something about who chucks their weight around).

"Grade 1 is something like slipping on a banana skin right up to Grade 5 which is an outbreak of Ebola or a consultant's Audi being blocked in its space in the hospital car park".

This thread sent a shiver down my DH’s spine @KirtonandKim, recalling his time as a medical student and junior doctor in a London teaching hospital in the 80s. He found some of the consultants loathsome and dangerously arrogant. It was a large part of the reason he left medicine (along with the trying to work in a system that required shifts such as Friday morning to Sunday afternoon straight and a lack of training posts at the time), he’s never regretted his decision.

Umbongoumbongo999 · 04/07/2021 19:28

I do the same job as you. Agree it is massively draining dealing with the politics, the attitudes and sometimes the out and out bullying. You have to be super tough to work with personalities like this, and sometimes I think I'm not tough enough.

I read Surrounded By Idiots as I really needed some strategies to work with people who are just so different to me. The vast majority of surgeons I have worked with are very 'red' in approach, and actually appreciate blunt directness, and being told no, rather than obfuscation and maybes.

I dont think it's fair that surgeons are untouchable. Unfortunately many organisations are just not prepared to take them on as a group or as individuals. I used to joke that my last medical director had a really big rug that he swept all of his surgeon problems under. My current trust is slightly better at holding doctors to account, and is very careful in the selection of clinical directors who can bridge the gap between the corporate objectives and the needs of their colleagues. If you haven't already forged an alliance with your CD I suggest you invest heavily in that relationship.

It is entirely wearing dealing with the bullshit, but there are some nice people and usually they are ok one on one. I have worked with vascular, gynae and general surgeons, but my time in orthopaedics has been most stressful, and I find orthopods the hardest group to manage.

Hairymoohead · 04/07/2021 19:30

It doesn’t excuse speaking to your PA like shut or throwing things, but the generalisations about surgeons on this thread are a bit much when the plenty of surgeons that I know are just working incredibly hard to properly discharge the massive responsibility they hold and work in an environment where you often need to be firm for anything to get done.
I think a lot of talented people used to get away with behaving badly - it doesn't wash with people anymore. Talented and rude - the door is that way ----> It used to be we didn't mind, not we'll put up with your rude shit - even the science points to patients of consultants who don't behave like arses, have patients with better results!

HmmmmmmInteresting · 04/07/2021 19:33

I do know one absolutely LOVELY surgeon if that makes you feel any better. All the staff love him.
He was once stopped from mopping his theatre after surgery 😂

See, I wouldn't want this guy to do my op

Letsallscreamatthesistene · 04/07/2021 19:34

Ime Orthopedics are the worst. Just fucking twats. Ive never met one in any hospital ive worked at and thought they were an okay human. Burns and Plastics seem to be the nicest breed.

Note - im a nurse who has worked on many wards covering many specialities. The probably skews my opinion/relationship dynamic with them somewhat.

Snog · 04/07/2021 19:34

They have the power of life and death and therefore develop a god complex.

Plus they like slicing people up.

You don't have to work with them OP.

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