Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

[KirtonandKim]

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

@SlipperyDippery it’s not really very unreasonable to generalise about surgeons…. Lots of people have experience with working with surgeons and will say the same thing. Not ALL surgeons, but there’s a significant enough correlation that it’s commented on.

I’ve worked with oncologists and regardless of whether they’re clinical/medical/surgical, they are always lovely, to be fair. But a lot of other surgical specialties have a very high level of arseholes.

I took so long to write my comments I missed a lot of posts.

Elective surgery was cancelled, but surely your surgeons still had emergency surgery, urgent patients to see, referrals to do etc. I can’t believe for 12 months they’ve done NO work.

I definitely think you need to be a certain type of person to work in theatre, nursing and medical.

I’ve worked with a lot of surgeons who can act like right arseholes but it usually comes from frustration at not being able to get the stuff they need, when they need, for a patient who needs it. They work incredibly incredibly long hours and split themselves in two/three sometimes, I wouldn’t do their job no matter the pay.

Cardio thoracic, neuro and vascular the absolute worst.

I dated a neuro reg once. The worst decision ive ever made. He once came to my department (I was an A+E nurse at the time) "to see what I did with my time" and "why the department was so busy and maybe he could help manage it so it was more efficient". I didnt date him for long.

There’s been some interesting research into “civility” in healthcare and a campaign called “civility saves lives”. I saw an excellent TED talk. Maybe if you package it as a way of reducing their morbidity and mortality rates it might just start them thinking?

Maybe it’s not the job for you.

I’m from a medical family and have a number of surgeons in my family. Some are difficult, some are not, just like the rest of us. The pressure both personally and professionally over most or their lives is immense. Some have better coping mechanisms than others. The most difficult one, at work I hear and in family life, is the one who I would choose if the situation arose. His work is a vocation beyond the comprehension of most of us.

Why is bad behaviour tolerated? It’s not tolerated everywhere. Our trust has disciplined / sacked a few consultants.

Some jobs just don’t work unless you have absolute faith in your own abilities. Surgeons, pilots, air traffic controllers… A bad ten seconds of your time can cost someone else their life. It takes a certain mindset to even want to do those jobs.

Because there are not enough of these people to sacrifice so much of their own well-being and personal lives.

Definitely not all surgeons. My daughter’s surgeon is one of the loveliest, caring and dedicated people you could ever meet.

I’ve forged alliances with 2 of them. One near retirement and very zen about the whole thing. Another very junior and really wants to see a culture change in the department. I have another “not quite consultant but nearly” on side too. They’ve come from the Netherlands and genuinely cannot believe the attitudes of the other doctors.

I disagree that doctors are immune from being asked to change their working lives. If your boss says I need you to do X during 9-12 and then a year later says actually due to service needs I need you to do y between 9 - 12 instead, do you go and argue the why should I case? You’re being paid to provide clinical work during 9 - 12. It isn’t unreasonable that the work you’re asked to provide changes occasionally to meet the needs of patients

Seem to remember that there is a disproportionate percentage of surgeons who are psychopaths.

I’ve worked with many, in our county one has a horrific reputation (a woman) and I worked very well with her. Similar to some male surgeons too.
I think some people know how to work with them and some don’t - they all had a core team of which they worked well together but If you weren’t part of it you didn’t last long.

You’ll find it easier if you negotiate changes and try to take people with you rather than attempt to impose your will.

How well do you understand the job planning process?

@StateOfTheUterus

There’s been some interesting research into “civility” in healthcare and a campaign called “civility saves lives”. I saw an excellent TED talk. Maybe if you package it as a way of reducing their morbidity and mortality rates it might just start them thinking?

I don’t know this particular talk but it’s something my DH feels strongly about. He feels strongly that the theatre staff are as important in the theatre as he is - he can’t operate without the scrub nurse any more than he or she can operate without him. Part of that is they have to feel able to challenge him if they are concerned he is making a mistake or has missed something, which surgeons are obviously not above doing!

This is straight from the human factors training video everyone gets shown at induction

I’d best not comment, but I think it’s the nhs system that’s at fault as I’ve always found them ok to work with.

Theres confidence then theres just being rude-in ops exmaples sexism-thats nothing to do with their job and how self confident they are theyre just pigs

It has to be orthopaedics!!

Gynae tend to be lovely, general can get a bit grumpy but overall aren’t too bad... urology are always pleasant... neurology and cardiology they always have smiles on their faces..

Can I put £5 on Ortho? 😂

I work alongside hospital doctors. IME there has been a certain generation who were taught to believe that they are untouchable, and who really resent any management/suggestion/constructive criticism from anyone, but it's even worse if that person is a non-medic.

My lovely consultant friend gave me an example from her specialty training. There's a bit of work I have to do jointly with consultants, and they can't legally do it without my agreement. My friend was taught that if the person of my profession disagrees that the work is clinically appropriate, the doctor should go over the head of the other professional and demand that a different clinician who will sign it off attends. Which is unlawful.

The next generation seem to have better training, and are much more team-focused.

And I should add that the gynae consultant and ST who operated on me a few weeks ago were charming, humble, knowledgable and skilled. I felt like I was in great hands.

Some are ok, some are crazy.

A relative had heart surgery last year & I was looking at the a particular hospital that had actually stopped surgeries in that area a few yrs previously & was under special measures (or whatever it's called) basically not because of negligence but infighting & bullying.

See, those of you saying as a patient that your surgeon is lovely is only seeing the one side of them. Ask the theatre and ward staff what they are like as people.
As with anywhere else, most are lovely, some are not. A small percentage are complete arseholes. Same in any job.

I am walking around because of 4 x 12 hour spinal surgeries I had twenty years ago. My surgeon was the same age as me and very kind, compassionate and brilliant. My case was very difficult and it would have been very easy not to take the risk. I was middle aged and had surges that are usually done on teenagers.
I will never forget him and how he made my life so much better or from what I saw how kind he was. Perhaps he was not the norm

@Soundoftheunderground

It has to be orthopaedics!!

Gynae tend to be lovely, general can get a bit grumpy but overall aren’t too bad... urology are always pleasant... neurology and cardiology they always have smiles on their faces..

Can I put £5 on Ortho? 😂

I was gonna bet cardiac.

One job I had involved working with medical students as they qualified. We used to play a game of 'guess the speciality' they wanted to go into. We'd have a guess then ask them. The correct guess rate was over 80% Prospective surgeons were very easy to spot, as were those interested in becoming GPs. Those with thoughts of becoming T & O surgeons might as well have walked in with a flashing light on their heads, they were so easy to spot.

Oh and the breast surgeons at my hospital are genuinely the nicest bunch of people I’ve ever met.