Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

[KirtonandKim]

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

Olympics I think it was just because you were speaking in general terms so it may have come across as "this is always the case" rather than "this is the trend which is encouraging".

I think it's very encouraging that things are changing. It must be very stressful for everyone to work in environments like the one the OP describes.

Fascinating thread.

I wonder if @darasda works in OPs department or if it's the same dynamic wherever he and she is.

I wasn't offended by anything he said tbh. I'm a fairly straight talker as well but that's me.

I do hope he agrees the meeting about the chairs was perhaps unreasonable though!

ICU nurse here so worked with plenty of docs over the years. Most of the anaesthetists are ok but there's one I can't stand. Female funnily enough, nasty, nasty, nasty. Thinks nothing of humiliating junior docs publicly. Once showed up a reg in the midst of doing a perc trachy, a trivial mistake and absolutely unnecessary but obviously it wasn't the time or place to defend himself so he went along with it.

@C8H10N4O2

I could explain to you why you are wrong but I can't be bothered because I have a busy clinic

But not so busy that you can find time to post here and mansplain.

But I simply refuse to take any bullshit from a here today gone tomorrow jobsworth who should really be managing the fruit and veg section at the local Tesco's, not telling highly skilled professionals how to do their job (aka say no to things and systems that help them do their job). These highly skilled professionals know better than anyone what their patients need and are the turnaround point in the whole system

Oh good then you know how best to get the maintenance work done? How to recruit the electricians? Manage procurement contracts and teh supply chain to ensure your godliness has all the relevant (but obviously unimportant) minions available?

I'm in a "prima donna" profession. One of the reasons I'm top of my tree is because I acknowledge the expertise of others in their own disciplines. My practice is in demand because the whole team functions, including those managing the contract processes, training, supply chain etc rather than just being able to provide bursts of expertise from individuals.

But you crack on hun, demonstrating the arrogance of the patriarchy and the problems of misogyny in the NHS.

Your post made me chuckle tbh. Did you actually read my post? I don't tell the electricians and others what to do and respect what they do. We are all cogs in one big machine, to help patients. The problem is when said electrician (just to use your example) gets promoted to a manager and feels they can then manage people whose jobs they don't understand. And then disappears three years later having achieved nothing and managed no one and the people who actually deliver the service (who do the actual work of the NHS and are there to stay) have to pick up the pieces and clear up the mess.

That's the issue not people's job titles.

Relatives who are diff types of docs. The surgeon has a lot of arrogance, self belief, self confidence - incredibly clever though

It’s obviously a certain type of personality to do such a skilled and high stakes job. I know you can’t change one team but old fashioned secretary approach probably helped massively in past. Now they get a generic pa which doesn’t suit anyone. I’m not medical but legal and in past a partner’s secretary would pander to their ways and act as a gatekeeper. Saved everyone lots of stress and yes their were women happy to do job (like a work wife).

@TiddyTidTwo

Fascinating thread.

I wonder if @darasda works in OPs department or if it's the same dynamic wherever he and she is.

I wasn't offended by anything he said tbh. I'm a fairly straight talker as well but that's me.

I do hope he agrees the meeting about the chairs was perhaps unreasonable though!

Thanks Tiddy,

We are so used to people dancing around topics and not saying anything that might upset people that when you do cut the crap and talk directly they regard it as 'mansplaining'.

For those here having a pop at me: Engage with the substance of what I'm saying. And the vast majority of surgeons feel the same about managers (few thoughtful and sensible exceptions around who actually want to get things done with the doctors not 'manage' them).

There's also a subtext here that people don't talk about: majority of surgeons are men and majority of managers are former nurses and women. There is a middle class working class dynamic too. Quite a few have serious chips on their shoulders and let that work itself into their day to day work.

FWIW I am a great fan of female surgeons, and had a wonderful mentor who almost mothered me. I do everything I can to encourage and promote female trainees.

A friend in the theatre told me 'always leave them wanting more' he was a lovely guy but a crap anaesthetist 🙂

I’m not surprised @darasda is pissed off after all the cunty stereotyping of surgeons on this thread.

As I said upthread, my husband is sick to the back teeth of cancelling operations for his cancer patients because people don’t follow instructions, and isn’t shy to feed back where someone has made a mistake - not to be a twat, but to try to stop it happening again for the benefit of the patients. The amount of people on this thread who don’t seem to realise the amount of work surgeons do trying to ensure other people do their jobs properly, on top of the massive responsibility of actually doing the operation. When it comes to the surgery, they do know best, it is their responsibility to make sure it goes well and they are entitled to be direct to ensure good patient outcomes. Some people seem to want surgeons to put more effort into being touchy feely with their colleagues than to save lives.

OP I appreciate it’s your job to tell surgeons to cancel an operating list to attend mandatory training or whatever but please understand why they might not be happy about it.

Perhaps there is a need for 'surgeon whisperers' who can act as an interface between the surgeon and others?

Blackbox thinking by Matthew Syed gives a brilliant example of what happens when one person is seen as infallible.

A person I have known for many years decades even. Was a dentist assistant. Fast forward she's now a Billy big boots health. A decade ago she was on 80k plus cute Merc convertible. Commuting nationwide staying in lovely hotels. A lonely life it has to be said but paid for property here and abroad. She does however, speak Welsh.

The post example is exactly sort of thing our clueless office manager had no idea about. They weren’t kicking off because they had to open own post. Their (own and trained secretary) opening post meant routine stuff dealt with, rest prioritised etc so the workload was managed and day went smoothly. But so easy to sneer and say Mr X is kicking off because he’s got to open own letters. Legal not medical but I can imagine suddenly losing your pa is just as disruptive to a surgeon.

Your post made me chuckle tbh. Did you actually read my post? I don't tell the electricians and others what to do and respect what they do. We are all cogs in one big machine, to help patients. The problem is when said electrician (just to use your example) gets promoted to a manager and feels they can then manage people whose jobs they don't understand. And then disappears three years later having achieved nothing and managed no one and the people who actually deliver the service (who do the actual work of the NHS and are there to stay) have to pick up the pieces and clear up the mess.

Congratulations, you have just demonstrated that you do not understand the role of a manager and why you need one.

What's the difference between God and a surgeon?
God knows he's not a surgeon.

@C8H10N4O2

Your post made me chuckle tbh. Did you actually read my post? I don't tell the electricians and others what to do and respect what they do. We are all cogs in one big machine, to help patients. The problem is when said electrician (just to use your example) gets promoted to a manager and feels they can then manage people whose jobs they don't understand. And then disappears three years later having achieved nothing and managed no one and the people who actually deliver the service (who do the actual work of the NHS and are there to stay) have to pick up the pieces and clear up the mess.

Congratulations, you have just demonstrated that you do not understand the role of a manager and why you need one.

Really, how?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and will hear you out why you say that.

Do you have a reasoned, sensible and rational response rather than the snide dismissal? One that addresses my points? Can you actually make a rational defence of the current management system in the NHS? (In contrast to some other countries where people are promoted based on merit and qualifications and new ideas and a deep understanding of the complexities of modern healthcare and surgeons' role in them?)

And remember surgeons have a very strong inbuilt bullshit detector, so please don't come out with management-speak because that we hear it everyday and roll our eyes every time.

@Taswama

Blackbox thinking by Matthew Syed gives a brilliant example of what happens when one person is seen as infallible.

I second this, brilliant book and lots of lessons for all doctors and all people within the NHS for that matter. Especially from the aviation industry, something that is slowly working itself into the culture of the NHS in the form of the conversation around Human Factors. This is a very welcome thing, instead of the usual NHS culture of blame. (Remember folks we are all one big happy team within the NHS until something goes wrong and then the blame-thrower gets wheeled out and gets pointed at the doctors not all the other cogs).

And no one says surgeons think they are infallible. I'm tired of all the tired and stale stereotypes about surgeons (the Sir Lancelot Spratt stuff) on this thread, and in society generally.

"Engage with the substance of what I'm saying. "

No one has to engage with someone who indulges in personal abuse and silly rhetoric. Not on here. Here you are dispensable and you are expected to follow the same rules as everyone else.

........... and if you are tired of stereotypes, stop propogating them through your writing style on here.

Honestly. I give up.

In contrast to some other countries where people are promoted based on merit and qualifications and new ideas and a deep understanding of the complexities of modern healthcare and surgeons' role in them?

Are there enough people who actually want to do that though?

I'd have thought that if surgery was your vocation, you'd want to keep doing it. And the type of people it sounds like you want are probably people who can have a highly successful career at the forefront one their field in a hospital or academic setting.

I do understand what you mean about culture differences etc, but the thing is, I don't think NHS manager is an aspiration anyone really has growing up so you'll either get people coming up from lower within the NHS (who aren't surgeons) or coming in from outside (who might be more equal "level" but don't know the systems).

'And remember surgeons have a very strong inbuilt bullshit detector, so please don't come out with management-speak because that we hear it everyday and roll our eyes every time'.

Darasda , you really are the gift that keeps on giving ..

I think Darasdas getting a harsh time on here.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and you can only speak from your perspective.

I think everyone working in medicine has to watch Dr Glaukomfleken on ticktok

@darasda

Honestly. I give up.

Just as well. You should have quit while you were behind tbh.