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Why are surgeons such arrogant arseholes

378 replies

KirtonandKim · 04/07/2021 17:58

*not all of them

Seasoned manager of over 25 years. Brought in to manage a team of surgeons who have ridiculous retention of staff (they can’t). Managers, operational, PAs and juniors - they cannot retain anyone.

2 months in and I can see why. They are without a doubt the most arrogant group of people I’ve ever had the misfortune of trying to manage. I’ve managed “bad” teams before - but nothing like this. And it’s just shrugged and accepted as “what surgeons are like”.

They know they are untouchable - they know they have us over a barrel and we can’t sack them. But the constant moaning and bitching and whining and utter lack of any insight into their own behaviour is fucking flabbergasting

God I can’t face work tomorrow

OP posts:
Cowbells · 05/07/2021 06:45

@Twelvetimestwo

Probably because most are psychopaths and I for one am glad!
I don't understand. Why would you be glad your surgeon is a psychopath? There are horrific tales of a surgeon who gave unnecessary hysterectomies and carved his initials in women's abdomens because he thought he was God. I'd prefer someone with more humanity.
Walkaround · 05/07/2021 07:13

I personally know three surgeons who are lovely (all have worked in the UK, but none of them do now), and others who were friends of my parents who were perfectly pleasant people, but have been operated on or the parent of the patient on enough occasions to know that there are some truly arrogant, misogynistic twats attracted to surgery. They haven’t had the general reputation for arrogance and poor people skills within the medical community since the inception of the NHS and before for no reason. And they are definitely not all God - the one I got as a baby was an incompetent alcoholic. The nice ones are proof that it is not a necessary personality trait to be an arrogant, misogynistic twat, but if you are one who happens to be training as a doctor, you’ll probably want to be a surgeon. Nowhere else would tolerate you, for a start. I do also think it true that exceptionally high levels of stress can bring out some pretty bad behaviour (and alcoholism!).

Boscoforever · 05/07/2021 07:21

Gosh, I’m amazed at this thread. Been an NHS nurse for years and can only think of 1 horrible Dr. He is young, a medical not surgical Dr, and complete dick.
All our surgeons are lovely, I work in endoscopy so have a stream of different doctors in every day. Surgeons are all lovely, polite, pleasant, chat and have tea with us….guess we are lucky. I’d pull someone no matter who they were for rudeness though.

olympicsrock · 05/07/2021 07:24

I’m the surgeon who commented upthread. So many of these descriptions are historic. Things are not like this any more as people challenge bad behaviour and consequences occur.
I see consultant surgeons who introduce themselves by their first name to patients and staff, are kind and caring .
Yes we are decisive and take no bullshit. Sometimes we do know best....
Sometimes getting a bleeding patient from ED to theatre without delay ( and telling the ED team that the paperwork and another set of observations can wait) means that the patient doesn’t lose a leg. You will find that surgeons generally put patients at the heart of everything we do .

Milomonster · 05/07/2021 07:36

@olympicsrock your post is patronising. You don’t need to speak up for your profession. The experiences reported here (including my own) are real.
One twat refused to operate on my father when I asked him a few questions as he said it demonstrated we didn’t trust him. Was he God that he couldn’t be questioned? I lost my first child at the hands of very incompetent NHS staff. Medics (esp surgeons) should to open to questioning.

Motherofalittledragon · 05/07/2021 07:38

I've worked with a lot of surgeons, they are total arrogant arsehloes, never again!

RosesAndHellebores · 05/07/2021 07:53

Is it a microcosm of a class issue? The surgeons tend to come from supportive, middle class families, possibly good public schools and the intense medical training environment and the hierarchical nature of the NHS compounds an issue of arrogance and self importance: brightest, best educated, privileged, etc. That is then compounded by those lower in the hierarchy becoming ever chippier and the whole thing gets magnified. Certainly I get crisper the more nurses/admin staff natter claptrap and are overfamiliar and I can see how that may be perceived as arrogance.

One size simply doesn't fit all beit the NHS or a huge comprehensive. People are all different and no amount of data on protected characteristics or statutory reporting will ever change it. The emphasis on provision, structure and mechanisms to promote equality are so bloody self defeating. I say that as a public sector HR Director who has lost count of the number of times she has been tapped up by headhunters for NHS Trusts - and I always say no because imo the institution is just too toxic for a difference to be made.

EishetChayil · 05/07/2021 08:01

My neighbour is a student surgeon. She had a parcel delivered to me while she was away, and asked me to open it to check it was the right thing. It was a book about psychology for surgeons - how to psyche yourself up to perform the job. It gave me an insight into the mindset of a surgeon - quite interesting.

HighNetGirth · 05/07/2021 08:10

A lawyer friend told me that a lot of good QCs are hits, but the really really top ones are almost invariably very nice. So tell you surgeons something like this:- if they want to be seen as the creme de la creme they have to come across as nice, understanding and on top of everything.
If they haven't got consciences, you'll have to work on their vanity!

HighNetGirth · 05/07/2021 08:10

"Hits" should read "gits" obviously!

HighNetGirth · 05/07/2021 08:11

Or "shits". Take your pick.

rantymcrantface66 · 05/07/2021 08:28

I think it's a shared character trait of many in highly skilled, high pressure professions you need a certain amount of arrogance and self belief to get there. It's definitely not just limited to surgeons. In my anecdotal experience though the very best of the best are the opposite and are frequently lovely people

Welloff · 05/07/2021 08:31

This is such an interesting thread.

1 re whining - I’ve done a consultancy exercise with an “elite” group of men. For the first hour of interview they moaned. When I just kept listening though they eventually became more constructive and a distinct pattern of requests (non-financial) emerged which the organisation acted on promptly. But it took two weeks of “letting frustrations out” before that point was reached.
I suspect the OP doesn’t get the luxury of long listening sessions and instead gets used as a punch bag.

2 lawyers go through a mini-version of being “the big I am” and being sharp-elbowed upon qualification/promotion, but there is huge competition for our jobs so we rein it in/get over ourselves.

Truthfully, work is much easier at senior level if you have people around you describing you as important- it gives the client confidence/makes them more patient.

Dasada sounds isolated and like he has retreated into an antagonistic pattern in order to cope with the frustrations of the job and fear of operations going belly up because of lack of resources.

Welloff · 05/07/2021 08:32

“ It was a book about psychology for surgeons - how to psyche yourself up to perform the job. It gave me an insight into the mindset of a surgeon - quite interesting.”

Ooh,link!

darasda · 05/07/2021 09:00

@Welloff

This is such an interesting thread.

1 re whining - I’ve done a consultancy exercise with an “elite” group of men. For the first hour of interview they moaned. When I just kept listening though they eventually became more constructive and a distinct pattern of requests (non-financial) emerged which the organisation acted on promptly. But it took two weeks of “letting frustrations out” before that point was reached.
I suspect the OP doesn’t get the luxury of long listening sessions and instead gets used as a punch bag.

2 lawyers go through a mini-version of being “the big I am” and being sharp-elbowed upon qualification/promotion, but there is huge competition for our jobs so we rein it in/get over ourselves.

Truthfully, work is much easier at senior level if you have people around you describing you as important- it gives the client confidence/makes them more patient.

Dasada sounds isolated and like he has retreated into an antagonistic pattern in order to cope with the frustrations of the job and fear of operations going belly up because of lack of resources.

You don't know me well enough to make such a sweeping (and as it happens wrong) assumption. I could explain to you why you are wrong but I can't be bothered because I have a busy clinic.

I happen to be quite a good colleague and team player and I'd like to think fairly popular with everyone including an excellent nurses and scrubs.

But I simply refuse to take any bullshit from a here today gone tomorrow jobsworth who should really be managing the fruit and veg section at the local Tesco's, not telling highly skilled professionals how to do their job (aka say no to things and systems that help them do their job). These highly skilled professionals know better than anyone what their patients need and are the turnaround point in the whole system.

Have a nice day all

RosesAndHellebores · 05/07/2021 09:01

@rantymcrantface66 and @HighNetGirth. I agree. The principle difference, however, between a QC and a surgeon is that the QC may not be paid if he behaves like an arrogant arsehole to a client. It may be the CEO signing off the bill but the staff around the CEO will be feeding in experience and exasperation. The average QC has chambers costs to fund and no expectation of a guaranteed £140,000 annual income although the good ones earn at least £400,000/£500,000 in commercial disciplines which I guess are the equivalent of surgery.

It's also an interesting point that the overall experience (with exceptions) when I visit my local private hospital is very different to when I visit my local NHS Trust Hospital. It's because money changes hands or not in my experience and all too often the patriarchal/misogynistic culture of the NHS which exists to provide a free service to the general public feeds into the self perpetuating arrogance.

Nocaloriesinchocolate · 05/07/2021 09:02

It may be the context,. Over the years Ive worked with quite a few surgeons, in situations where I have been senior to them and they’ve been fine (and with junior staff)

shivawn · 05/07/2021 09:07

I work with surgeons and haven't found this. There is good and bad like with any other group of people. Sometimes, in particularly stressful situations they won't prioritise manners but this is understandable to me. Most of them will be very compassionate and informative when dealing with patients. The work they do is amazing.

TheWildsOfWinter · 05/07/2021 09:30

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@KirtonandKim,

Based on my acquaintance who is a medium senior NHS manager, I agree with PP who described managers as seeing medical personnel as line workers in a factory and medical patients as the product.

You moan above about a surgeon not doing what you tell him for his £100k. This shows a staggering lack of insight. He has trained for decades and his university colleagues with the same degree of education are earning 2-3x more as bankers or consultants (or even super senior NHS managers). He or she is in it as a vocation and to save lives, not for the (relatively) small salary from the NHS.

Now, on the other hand, what are your qualifications, what are you paid and what is your motivation to work?

A stressful day for a surgeon is a patient bleeding out on the table. A stressful day for you is being shouted at by a stroppy and stressed surgeon.

I suggest you think about the replies on here and reflect how you could be grateful for your overpaid, secure job and show more empathy and compassion to those you ‘manage’.[/quote]
What those of us who have worked in clinical teams (good to see ODPs mentioned on here!) know is that those teams work best when each member values everyone else's contribution. And most importantly of all, it's safer for the patient.

Surgeons are not gods, they are well trained and - usually - very skillful at their roles. Interestingly, very few people on this thread have pointed out that anaesthetists are just as skilled, and if we're looking at who is most important for the safety of the patient, I'd put the anaesthetist top every time. Yet they rarely exhibit the same behaviour youll see from some surgeons, nor will their departments have the political shenanigans that many surgical departments have.

Going back to the NHS managers you denigrate, the NHS lives by clinical and financial targets. There are insufficient resources, human and financial. All of that has to be managed. If there's one ITU bed, and 3 elective patients who might need it, someone has to support the decision making. 3 surgeons in a room will never come to a consensus otherwise!

Someone has to have oversight of the divisional bed situation, out patient waits, surgical waiting lists, finite theatre space, fitting in emergency cases, discharge planning, staff sickness levels, A& E waits, budgeting, recruitment, the list is endless. Without all those things that managers do, the modern NHS can't function.

When I managed a team in theatres (without a medical degree) it was my part of my role to ensure properly trained staff were available in appropriate numbers 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Without my team, surgery would not take place. It really was that simple.

Sneering at someone because they don't have a medical qualification, which they don't need to do their job, is bizarre. Questioning their motivation is just as bizarre.

terrywynne · 05/07/2021 09:32

I don't have much experience with surgeons but the civility campaign pps have posted is interesting with the concept that lives are saved if junior staff aren't afraid of speaking up.

If I remember correctly it is the airline industry that is praised for having no blame investigations and encouraging everyone to be able to speak up. As a result incidents and near misses can be properly examined and lessons learnt. Whereas if the junior staff were too afraid to speak up either incidents could occur or lesson learnt reviews would be less effective. I seem to remember that some of the coverage around recent majorbcrashes touched on fears that this culture was being eroded and that that industry would be less safe as a result.

C8H10N4O2 · 05/07/2021 09:37

I could explain to you why you are wrong but I can't be bothered because I have a busy clinic

But not so busy that you can find time to post here and mansplain.

But I simply refuse to take any bullshit from a here today gone tomorrow jobsworth who should really be managing the fruit and veg section at the local Tesco's, not telling highly skilled professionals how to do their job (aka say no to things and systems that help them do their job). These highly skilled professionals know better than anyone what their patients need and are the turnaround point in the whole system

Oh good then you know how best to get the maintenance work done? How to recruit the electricians? Manage procurement contracts and teh supply chain to ensure your godliness has all the relevant (but obviously unimportant) minions available?

I'm in a "prima donna" profession. One of the reasons I'm top of my tree is because I acknowledge the expertise of others in their own disciplines. My practice is in demand because the whole team functions, including those managing the contract processes, training, supply chain etc rather than just being able to provide bursts of expertise from individuals.

But you crack on hun, demonstrating the arrogance of the patriarchy and the problems of misogyny in the NHS.

Welloff · 05/07/2021 09:39

I think Darasda needs to be pointed towards flouncers' corner as he is new to mumsnet.

seriously though Darasda, your posts are offensive and you aren't going to improve things for your patients by insulting your colleagues. Anyone can see that.

TheWildsOfWinter · 05/07/2021 09:45

However, they absolutely are extremely arrogant. The surgeon that I was sitting in on was playing ‘AWOL nation sail’ on the iPod really bloody loud while operating and the anaesthetist asked the theatre nurse to turn it down which she did, surgeon then pipes up and tells her to turn it back up, gets his own way after a bit of a tantrum and the very rational anaesthetist slunk back in his chair probably thinking you utter waker. Surgeon gave no shits and carried on. This is just one example. I have many more.*

I once worked with a cardiac surgeon who liked to have 'oh lord it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way' played over and over in theatres Grin

olympicsrock · 05/07/2021 09:55

@Milomonster. Why shouldn’t I voice my opinion?
This thread isn’t only for people who want to denigrate surgeons. I am a surgeon and have worked with surgeons in different specialties for 20 years. I think my opinion is just as valid as anyone elses.

RosesAndHellebores · 05/07/2021 09:58

Do you know something DH is at the top of his tree and privately can be demanding and arrogant. He reserves it for close friends who know him well and remember 35 years ago teaching him a lesson by pouring cold baked beans over his head. Professionally and publicly he is charm personified. He is also decent, moral, loyal and honest. He might occasionally call me a "bloody stupid woman" but he would never speak to a colleague like that. He values his professional reputation far too highly.