Is it totally normal for primary school teachers to shout at their pupils these days?

[SatsumaFan]

Just wondering. My 10yo ds is always saying a particular TA, who also teaches them PE once a week, shouts a lot. He says she always seems in a bad mood and is short tempered and shouts her head off at them. He says he stops listening when she does it (I'd be inclined to do the same tbh. Can't bear people shouting at me).

Is this normal or should I email the head and ask for her to stop? They're year 5 btw, but also hear stories of a Year 3 teacher being extremely shouty and it makes me uncomfortable.

Firstly- I don’t. I can, but the knowledge that I can pretty much prevents my class from getting to a point where I might need to.

But...that’s my class, I teach them day in, day out. There are sanctions that I can use which don’t rely on shouting. A TA teaching once a week won’t have the same relationships as a daily teacher. A lot of class control relies solely on those relationships- how else do you get 30 people to do what you want all at the same time for 6 hours a day? Just try it!

It’s a vicious circle: TA raises voice (necessary to teach PE which is noisier and in a bigger area), child stops listening, doesn’t do as asks, TA raises voice..... So some of it could very well be linked to the behaviour of the class (the last class to make me cry were yr5, they just never shut up!). Rarely, in my experience will a child reporting shouting also report the behaviour of the class!

Just a final thought: if you have top tips for people controlling 30 kids. Please video yourself using them while teaching a PE lesson (no cherrypicking the well-behaved ones!). Do this weekly until you have 6 weeks worth of lessons. I’m sure that the school will value your input.

@QueenofLouisiana 🙌🏼

Yes my DC's teacher is a shouter. It's had a horrible effect on several kids (mostly the neurodiverse ones). She's a bit better recently since there's been multiple separate complaints from different parents.

That’s TAs for you!

Also surprised how much shouting there is.l now. But don’t really remember any shouting when I was at primary. So either it happened and I didn’t notice/mind, or just don’t remember now, or shouting really is more common...!

@niceupthedance thank you for your comment. Those poor kids I have an extremely nervous / anxious / son going into Yr3 in Sept (has traits of selective mutism) and I'm so worried he'll be put with the loud shouty teacher. I'm glad some people have complained about that teacher at your school.

There's a massive difference between losing your patience/temper now and again and shouting at kids all day every day. The latter smacks of very little respect or self-control, and I think if you're shouting at small people all day every day you're probably in the wrong job...

What's the behaviour of the class like on a daily basis? Did you ask your child?

There is a difference between shouting to be heard and shouting to tell off. I'm sure you know this @QueenofLouisiana. Most people including 10 year olds can tell the difference.

I do think it's crap technique but at the same time it doesn't hurt kids to know that some people are just not very nice, so I wouldn't complain.

I work in different primary schools. When I’m in the good schools I rarely hear anyone shout in some schools I hear them shout continuously. Schools have dramatically different cultures.

Also - what a child reports as shouting is very often NOT shouting at all but just a loud, assertive voice - “be QUIET, year 4”, etc. Which is very often needed in a practical session with an overexcited class (I need to use that voice quite often with my own children and there are only two of them...)

DD7 is in Yr2 at an infant school. Both DD and some of her friends have said several of their teachers shout quite regularly.

Having said that I have been in a shouty school that was horrible, and it was all TAs shouting at kids. I felt quite sorry for them. Not a nice environment. Most schools aren’t like that but every school has some “strong” loud speech sometimes.

@ThiagoSilvasToe I think it's normally pretty good. I'm friends with a TA in his class and she's never mentioned any issues.

The examples he gives of the TA are when kids might mess about but apparently she goes from 0-100 in seconds and will bellow at the child/children and make them all stand in silence and miss play time etc until they all do as they're told / not messing. She's also apparently very sarcastic and negative to the children. Tells me snippets of when she's jumped down a child's throat for getting something innocently wrong.

Guess I've just been lucky with teachers up until now being the more gentle, soft, respectful type who don't need to resort to shouting to make themselves feel heard.

You've got it totally backward in your recent post, to be honest.

There is a lot wrong with losing your temper as a teacher. I have never lost my temper in class. Honestly, I've never come close.

On the other hand, I have raised my voice plenty of times. I am sure that children would say I shout. I do make them laugh though, because I'll be speaking very firmly to a child and then turn around and go straight into my cheery voice.

Why do I shout? Children need to know when they've done wrong. I only have two ways to show them - punishments or shouting/firmly speaking to them. I use each option as well as I can.

I'd love to only ever smile and talk in a lovely voice, but it's not always what's best for the child.

I'm going to pick you up on your thread title - because it's not a primary school teacher who is shouting - it's a TA, who is not a teacher. My DC had a TA in primary school who was cross and shouty all the time.

I'm not surprised. She's not a qualified or trained teacher. She's paid shit money and is then left with a class of kids to 'teach' who all know she's not a proper teacher and don't pay any attention to her.

That's the problem with some schools. Lack of money means using cheap, unqualified staff to cover classes. You can't blame the TA for not being able to cope - and resenting being expected to.

@Solidaritea I'm sure ds's teachers raise their voices and do a stern telling off frequently. I'm not expecting anyone to smile all day every day. He's not particularly sensitive / is resilient and used to me raising my voice at times to tell him off. He's fine with all that. But he's regularly coming out of school looking fed up and saying "we had Mrs X today and all she did was shout at us the whole time. I don't know why she's so angry".

@GravityFalls that's sad some schools seem to have a culture of shouting I do not send my children to school to get shouted at. I find it a poor form of communication to say the least.

Hate to think how it makes the ND children, or those with trauma, or in an abusive household etc feel. It certainly wouldn't help to make them feel calm and regulated and ready to learn...

@MadMadMadamMim not just this TA, there is also a Yr3 TEACHER with a reputation that precedes her for being very shouty.

My children have the utmost respect for TA's and have no idea about their pay packets. A school should be creating a culture of respect to ALL, imo.

And I do blame her. Self-regulation is something an adult brain is capable of. If she feels she's getting angry and going to shout perhaps she should take some deep breaths or something. She is a role model to these children, and when she's shouting and screaming at kids? Not a very good one.

I'm not surprised. She's not a qualified or trained teacher. She's paid shit money and is then left with a class of kids to 'teach' who all know she's not a proper teacher and don't pay any attention to her.
Yep. Also bear in mind that at the moment schools are still struggling to get everything done as well as possible with children confined to 'bubbles'. The second any member of staff is off sick, or out at an interview, the wheels come off.

IME this has meant TAs being left unexpectedly with a class of 30 and doing a lot of things well above their pay grade, when they are almost all of them working a fair whack of unpaid overtime as well.

This is not to say that constant shouting is right (or even effective) but it might provide some context.

I don't shout. To me that means you've lost control of your emotions but sometimes you do need to raise your voice. However I still got complained about for being "mean"? (The headteacher told them that they knew the complaint was baseless) I think some children think any assertiveness is mean.

@countdowntonap

That’s TAs for you!

Bullshit. I'm a TA and I very rarely shout and even when I do it's short commands because something is going very wrong i.e. "YEAR 6" , "enough" , "no" .

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman thank you. Yes I have the utmost respect and sympathy for anyone working in a school right now. I frequently email my children's teachers and thank them for all their hard work, kindness, help etc (and yes I cc in the Head).

But I also have that for the children who have had rather a tough time lately too... (esp those with trauma and/or abuse, or with additional needs...).

I don’t know that it’s about ‘these days’. We got shouted at quite regularly. My children’s classes got shouted at occasionally.

It happens. It’s not ideal, but teachers are human.

Some teachers have always shouted. I'm 40 and can remember shouty teachers from both primary and high school.

In fact I have found memories of some of them who were excellent teachers in spite of the shouting.

[quote SatsumaFan]@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman thank you. Yes I have the utmost respect and sympathy for anyone working in a school right now. I frequently email my children's teachers and thank them for all their hard work, kindness, help etc (and yes I cc in the Head).

But I also have that for the children who have had rather a tough time lately too... (esp those with trauma and/or abuse, or with additional needs...).[/quote]
Just have a chat to the teacher or email. Inquire politely about this TA and mention your child's concerns.

If it's really that bad, something is not working as it should.