Is it totally normal for primary school teachers to shout at their pupils these days?

[SatsumaFan]

Just wondering. My 10yo ds is always saying a particular TA, who also teaches them PE once a week, shouts a lot. He says she always seems in a bad mood and is short tempered and shouts her head off at them. He says he stops listening when she does it (I'd be inclined to do the same tbh. Can't bear people shouting at me).

Is this normal or should I email the head and ask for her to stop? They're year 5 btw, but also hear stories of a Year 3 teacher being extremely shouty and it makes me uncomfortable.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose every TA I've ever known has been calm, patient, kind, respectful and understanding and seldom raised their voice. I've volunteered in schools for a few years before the pandemic hit, and was on the PTA for a few years too. So have been around teaching staff and TA's both inside and outside of work/school.

@SatsumaFan

Well, take a job as a TA then and see how much fun it is. I just googled the pay rate and the average seems to be £8.94 - 11.19 per hour.

I'm fucked if I'd want to be doing PE with 30 Y5 kids for under £9 an hour. So being prissy about being a role model for kids doesn't really cut it at that price. If schools are going to take the piss and pile teaching responsibilities onto untrained and poorly paid staff then it's little use being surprised that some of them aren't doing a great job.

Almost every poster has pointed out that the answer to is it totally normal for primary school teachers to shout at their pupils these days? is No. It's not. And have explained what the likely explanation is, but you don't want to hear that.

I volunteer in a primary and have heard children say a particular teacher shouts and she absolutely doesn't. It is tone of voice, yes it sounds stern but it is not shouting or raising the volume level of her voice. She is definitely disapproving in her tone but as I told the children either you were doing something you shouldn't or you weren't doing something you should.

TAs or LSAs are given the shitty end of the stick, expected to do cover when the pay increase for that period is ridiculously small, have a shorter lunch break due to having additional duties, usually either hygiene related with a child or behavioural issues where a child cannot be left without a 1 to 1 TA/LSA for the duration of lunch.

If you want to address it with school then I would but this can be a case of "he feels" rather than "she shouts" and during PE they have to raise their voices because the space they are in is larger than the classroom.

@SometimesALime I also volunteer and want to agree with you. I have raised my voice at children too, I'm certainly not shouting. Sometimes in a busy classroom a raised voice is necessary for clarity, instruction, importance and often safety.

Personally, @SatsumaFan if I were in your situation I would have a chat with the head about your concerns, but reasonably. Children tell us many many truths but often from just their own perspective. Yes, the TA may be shouting. But that may also be as a result of the class behaviour. They may need more support in that lesson. Or perhaps further training and support. Whatever you do, please do it with kindness. TA's are the absolute backbone of schools and they have an exceptionally challenging and emotionally exhausting job with shocking wages. Please think carefully about how you voice your concern ❤️

@MadMadMadamMim thanks, but I'll stick to my minimum wage job working with Under 5's and their families if that's ok with you? I also do lots of unpaid overtime, and volunteer weekly on top, but you'd never catch me shouting at anyone else's child

@CaviarAndCigarettes I will of course. I aim to do everything in my life with kindness. Kindness, along with empathy, understanding and respect are all totally free and should be used more often imo

Oh, sorry, also @MadMadMadamMim just curious as to what hourly rate you feel becoming a role model kicks in at please? My view is that any adult spending a significant amount of time with my child, and affecting his learning and development (he's starting to dread PE) is a role model. That could be a grandparent, friend, neighbour, librarian etc.

@SatsumaFan that's good to hear. The dynamic in a classroom is difficult to translate, especially for younger children. I work in the same age group as your child and the teachers and teaching assistants are absolutely exceptional, however sometime behaviour is challenging and things have to be done to prevent children prom injuring themselves or others, or to remove children from a behaviour they don't need to see. It's a very challenging balance.

SatsumaFan

I'm not surprised. She's not a qualified or trained teacher. She's paid shit money and is then left with a class of kids to 'teach' who all know she's not a proper teacher and don't pay any attention to her.

That's the problem with some schools. Lack of money means using cheap, unqualified staff to cover classes. You can't blame the TA for not being able to cope - and resenting being expected to.

This ^^

It's been really stressful in school this last 12 months. No it's not an excuse for shouting but maybe they haven't actually had proper training? I do think PE staff have to shout more - it's easier controlling groups when they are sat down in a classroom. Outdoors it's harder as they have space to move around.& there are more distractions.

Your children probably behave well but maybe some of the others are messing about?

Where I work (primary school), it's against policy to shout and staff would get called out if they did. Behaviour is generally very good because the staff respect the children and vice versa. Shouting suggests someone is out of control which is never a good thing. We don't ask TAs to take PE though and it is possible the TA you mention isn't getting the training and support they need. With experience and good staff support, no one should ever need to properly shout. That's not to say I would never raise my voice or speak sternly if the situation required it.

With year 5 /6s they would probably see through someone shouting because they were out of control and up the bad behaviour as a result, leading to a spiral of continued shouting.

Personally OP I think you'd be quite reasonable to raise the issue with the head.

DH however does coach footie and he never shouts & his team win literally everything. So I do agree that shouting isn't the right way to motivate children.

I imagine she's a bit out of her depth. It's not actually easy to control a class of 30!

@CaviarAndCigarettes fab you work with some exceptional colleagues thank you for your input, it's really helpful.

@sgbk4862 thank you for your post. I think respect is a two way thing and should be taught/role modelled at school (not all the time, we are all humans not robots after all). It's heartening to hear shouting at children is against your school policy (I do know the difference between shouting and shouting at, and believe my 10.5 year old does too).

@converseandjeans that's so good to hear your dh coaches footie and doesn't shout! Amazing.

Yes it sounds like this TA is struggling (it's a class of 23 btw, not 30,but it's still a lot I know). It's not so much general PE outdoors shouting my ds has an issue with, it's when it's in the corridors and the fact she makes them all stand still and silent for ages before starting etc, eating into their lesson time or play time, even when it's just one or two who have been misbehaving. He then resents his classmates and dreads PE.

He does an impression of her and nearly makes himself hoarse so will deffo drop a line to school saying I'm worried about her.

I thought shouting during P.E was normal? it certainly was at my primary school.

In fact all teachers were very shouty even though it was/is a small, rural, friendly, well-regarded and happy school.

The reception teacher was the worst, and the Head used to shout until his face was bright red and veins bulged out of his temples. The swimming instructor was apoplectic at all times. Even the lunchtime monitor was a sour child-hater with a perma catbum expression.

(In the early 90s so just making the point shouty primary teachers aren’t a new thing rather than passing judgement - although personally I’m not traumatised by any of the above)

Not ideal though!

@amelia666 it's not just during PE. It's in the classroom and corridor too.

I know it was commonplace in previous decades. I just didn't know whether it was normal now.

I try to teach my children "treat others how you would like to be treated". None of us like or appreciate being shouted at (this isn't in a normal need-to-raise-your-voice cos it's noisy situation, he says she loses her temper and shouts aggressively at kids all the time and he hates it. He's not even the one being shouted at...).

Was hoping it was less common these days and looks like from this thread it is

SatsumaFan yes it's great as he is so nice to his team and then they keep winning and the other shouty coaches get even more wound up. There are some horrible junior footie coaches around and I can't see why people carry on sending their kids to training as it's not compulsory like school.

He does an impression of her and nearly makes himself hoarse sad so will deffo drop a line to school saying I'm worried about her.

I think taking the tone that you're worried would be better. Most primary schools get outside PE people in who are trained to do those sort of sessions. It sounds like she's been stitched up. TAs are supposed to support in class with things like maths/English intervention or reading/handwriting with small groups. So having to do PE is probably taking advantage a bit?

I'm not so sure... She's heavily involved in our town's team in a particular sport (won't say which one as outing) and is super sporty. She coaches and stuff so would say perhaps she's happy to do it, but have no idea.

@Solidaritea

You've got it totally backward in your recent post, to be honest.

There is a lot wrong with losing your temper as a teacher. I have never lost my temper in class. Honestly, I've never come close.

On the other hand, I have raised my voice plenty of times. I am sure that children would say I shout. I do make them laugh though, because I'll be speaking very firmly to a child and then turn around and go straight into my cheery voice.

Why do I shout? Children need to know when they've done wrong. I only have two ways to show them - punishments or shouting/firmly speaking to them. I use each option as well as I can.

I'd love to only ever smile and talk in a lovely voice, but it's not always what's best for the child.

Absolutely this.

So, a TA shouts and you’ve heard ‘stories’ of a teacher that shouts?!

Your thread title is misleading.

Well maybe she volunteered to take PE then... that puts a different slant on it. I had visions of a TA on minimum wage who just wanted to do some classroom work being told they had to take PE.

On another note tho I think secondary school PE teachers can tend to shout a bit more than primary teachers - they often become head of year/head of house. So I guess maybe it's not necessarily bad for the children to get used to hearing someone a bit more 'shouty'

Op, try the job and then criticise.

I'd love to be a super caring nurse who has time to sit and chat with every patient.
I'd love to be a nursery nurse, taking time to play with and nurture individual children...

Teaching a class of children is hard, particularly this year. I'm sure the teacher doesn't want to shout. It's likely they don't have enough support in the classroom, or are trying to spread themselves thinly between children.

If you're speaking to the head think carefully about your word choice.

Whilst I can see its a stressful job and in some circumstances a teacher/ta may shout.
However it is not the OP problem to address issues of pay or workload for a profession when deciding if she is or isn't comfortable with how her child is being treated. Its a bit irrelevant "you shout at my kid all the time but you aren't paid as well as you should and have a staffing issue so continue" come on. Its equally irrelevant that OP isn't doing /couldnt do the job "I couldnt do your job so shout as much as you want"
If your child is repeatedly and consistently saying they find the shouting extreme and constant then you are justified to highlight their perspective imo. I work in the public sector and would welcome feedback positive and negative to allow for reflection and change. If I dont realise the effect I am having or how I am coming across how can I change. It would be hard to hear yes but an opportunity to find an alternative.

Yes my son always says his teachers shout a lot but then it’s funny because when you come on MN people say it’s abuse to shout 🤷‍♀️

At least they're not throwing blackboard rubbers.

I’m a TA with a class of 28. We have an above average number of children with SEN and behavioural issues, both groups requiring more attention than the other kids. For whatever reason (maybe lockdown?) this group of kids is particularly bad at being quiet, listening and doing what they are told. I have them fairly frequently on my own, this is my first year as a TA, I have had no training at all due to Covid bubbles - I just got thrown in at the deep end and have to get on with it. So yes, I do raise my voice from time to time. I do tell off kids but in the context of ‘why did you try to strangle J?’ ‘We do not cut other Childrens hair’ and ‘do not hit K in the mouth with the plastic cricket bat’. (Three examples from last week).

This in the context of a minimum wage job where I frequently work unpaid overtime and contribute my own resources (I bought some toys for playtime, all of which were taken home / stolen within a week).

Pe is a tricky subject to cover as the kids are often hyper and prone to not listening.

Schools are not the same as when we were kids - expectations are higher, paperwork and monitoring is extensive. I’d also have to say that behaviour isn’t how I remember it - the things some very young kids say to staff would never have happened when I was a kid (for example, kid refuses to enter the classroom because they don’t feel like it. This is a safety issue, so TA goes out to get child in, gets told to fuck off and gets a kick in the shins. There are no repercussions for child other than 2 minutes off playtime, parent complains about kid being victimised as lost some playtime. Kid in this example is NT).

Being a TA isn’t an easy job at the moment and while we try to always be nice and smiley, sometimes we do raise voices. This isn’t a sign of loss of control, but sometimes it’s the only way to get your message across.

I can’t believe a school would expect a TA to teach PE, that’s completely unreasonable (I do believe you, I’m just surprised). At my school PE is the one lesson that has to be taught by a qualified teacher, I’m not allowed to leave a student teacher alone during PE although I can for any other lesson. I actually thought that was the same everywhere. I feel really sorry for them, but yes, shouting is not ideal. I never used to shout at my class but have started to a bit this year, feeling under pressure to do so by SLT (sometimes they shout at the children in the corridor, ‘modelling’ how I should behave). It never feels good for me or the children