Is it totally normal for primary school teachers to shout at their pupils these days?

[SatsumaFan]

Just wondering. My 10yo ds is always saying a particular TA, who also teaches them PE once a week, shouts a lot. He says she always seems in a bad mood and is short tempered and shouts her head off at them. He says he stops listening when she does it (I'd be inclined to do the same tbh. Can't bear people shouting at me).

Is this normal or should I email the head and ask for her to stop? They're year 5 btw, but also hear stories of a Year 3 teacher being extremely shouty and it makes me uncomfortable.

@MadMadMadamMim

I'm going to pick you up on your thread title - because it's not a primary school teacher who is shouting - it's a TA, who is not a teacher. My DC had a TA in primary school who was cross and shouty all the time.

I'm not surprised. She's not a qualified or trained teacher. She's paid shit money and is then left with a class of kids to 'teach' who all know she's not a proper teacher and don't pay any attention to her.

That's the problem with some schools. Lack of money means using cheap, unqualified staff to cover classes. You can't blame the TA for not being able to cope - and resenting being expected to.

The thing is, as a parent, I don't really care about her salary and conditions, what her background or home life is like or why she might be grumpy every day. I just wouldn't want her shouting at my kids, day in day out for no reason. It's bloody hard work but I don't see anyone being forced into it, for goodness' sake, go and do a job with adults instead and shout at them all day and see how far you get.

At our school LSA’s aren’t actually allowed to teach PE, something to do with insurance I’m told.

I'm a TA too.
I raise my voice to be heard at lunchtime (outside) because after I have blown my crappy, school issued, hardly whistles whistle I need to tell the children what they need to do, a loud "Line up time!" is needed. Perhaps I should go old school and get a big bell 🤔.

I'm not shouting in anger, I just need to be heard above the melee. It is most necessary with the year 6. They are nearly adult sized, and easily as loud and they play a whole class game. Plus with 6 weeks left they don't care anymore.

The quiet, nice straight line for walking around the school as a class is something our school do. In register order too. We are due for an Ofsted inspection and everyone has told me that this is one of the things they check.

Perhaps the TA has been asked to practice getting them in line in anticipation.

What works for the lower years is to raise your voice so everyone can hear and praise who actually is standing still. That technique doesn't work for older years though!

Dig a little deeper, ask the class teacher or ask another parent what their child says, before complaining though.

I work as an HLTA and have one class that I need to shout at on occasion. But given I also teach 4 or 5 other year groups and rarely have to raise my voice it says more about the class than me.

I don’t think shouting is particularly effective if you do it often. I’ve shouted a handful of times if a child is about to do something really dangerous because it shocks the out of it as I never do it. I raise my voice/talk in a “louder stern voice” but shouting is something else and I think it usually either scares children or just makes them switch off.

And only teachers are allowed to teach PE in our school

Yep my 8 year old gets shouted at for pretty much nothing - now hates school

Shouting is different from being firm.
Shouting is different from a telling off.
If a child/class really is shouted at every day then that is not ok or by any means normal. In fact, most schools I know have a no shouting policy.

Just putting this out there but maybe, just maybe, this TA is a qualified PE teacher, who gets paid to teach the PE lessons, but is also a TA?

@Halo1234

Whilst I can see its a stressful job and in some circumstances a teacher/ta may shout. However it is not the OP problem to address issues of pay or workload for a profession when deciding if she is or isn't comfortable with how her child is being treated. Its a bit irrelevant "you shout at my kid all the time but you aren't paid as well as you should and have a staffing issue so continue" come on. Its equally irrelevant that OP isn't doing /couldnt do the job "I couldnt do your job so shout as much as you want" If your child is repeatedly and consistently saying they find the shouting extreme and constant then you are justified to highlight their perspective imo. I work in the public sector and would welcome feedback positive and negative to allow for reflection and change. If I dont realise the effect I am having or how I am coming across how can I change. It would be hard to hear yes but an opportunity to find an alternative.

This!! Thank you @halo1234

In no other workplace would it be acceptable to consistently, aggressively, unreasonably shout and scream at another human being. Let alone at small children!

[quote SatsumaFan]@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman thank you. Yes I have the utmost respect and sympathy for anyone working in a school right now. I frequently email my children's teachers and thank them for all their hard work, kindness, help etc (and yes I cc in the Head).

But I also have that for the children who have had rather a tough time lately too... (esp those with trauma and/or abuse, or with additional needs...).[/quote]
You don’t come cross of having any respect or sympathy for staff in schools at all. You come across as passive aggressive, condescending and very negative. You seem to have perfect children, an inside spy in the staff room whom you’re friendly with (and no doubt delight in the tales she tells you of Miss shouting yet again).
Staff in schools don’t need to be frequently emailed to thank them for their kindness and hard work, they need: more support in the classroom; children who don’t believe the sun shines out of themselves and can do no wrong because mummy tells them that every day; enough time to complete the endless hours of planning and marking they do day in day out; less time spent being observed by SLT who seem to delight in telling them they’re doing a shit job and putting them on a support plan every other week because they didn’t double mark everything last lesson in red and green then get the children to complete their corrections with their purple pen of positivity; fear of losing their job and being replaced with teachers fresh faced out of college who cost £15k less than them to employ; the ceasing of never ending changes in policies both from the government and internally which have them going round in circles and not knowing if they’re supposed to be letting every child write in pen this week or if they have to ensure little Suzy’s handwi]rating is exquisite in order for her to earn a pen license.
Working in schools is immensely difficult. And yet here we have a raft of parents who think it’s a walk in the park. I’m surprised the Government needs to implement the National Tuition Programme to catch up on lost learning - after all, if we’re so bad at teaching, surely homeschooling during lockdown has led to a raising of standards!!!

I have never taught in a school that allows TAs to teach PE unless they have a specific coaching qualification. Something to do with insurance. I also wouldn't have a TA covering PE because it is the hardest to manage, behaviour wise so I don't think it's fair.

I shout in most of my outdoor PE lessons because our playground is unfortunately right next to a busy road and nobody can hear me otherwise! It's very annoying.

@FrenchFancie

I’m a TA with a class of 28. We have an above average number of children with SEN and behavioural issues, both groups requiring more attention than the other kids. For whatever reason (maybe lockdown?) this group of kids is particularly bad at being quiet, listening and doing what they are told. I have them fairly frequently on my own, this is my first year as a TA, I have had no training at all due to Covid bubbles - I just got thrown in at the deep end and have to get on with it. So yes, I do raise my voice from time to time. I do tell off kids but in the context of ‘why did you try to strangle J?’ ‘We do not cut other Childrens hair’ and ‘do not hit K in the mouth with the plastic cricket bat’. (Three examples from last week).

This in the context of a minimum wage job where I frequently work unpaid overtime and contribute my own resources (I bought some toys for playtime, all of which were taken home / stolen within a week).

Pe is a tricky subject to cover as the kids are often hyper and prone to not listening.

Schools are not the same as when we were kids - expectations are higher, paperwork and monitoring is extensive. I’d also have to say that behaviour isn’t how I remember it - the things some very young kids say to staff would never have happened when I was a kid (for example, kid refuses to enter the classroom because they don’t feel like it. This is a safety issue, so TA goes out to get child in, gets told to fuck off and gets a kick in the shins. There are no repercussions for child other than 2 minutes off playtime, parent complains about kid being victimised as lost some playtime. Kid in this example is NT).

Being a TA isn’t an easy job at the moment and while we try to always be nice and smiley, sometimes we do raise voices. This isn’t a sign of loss of control, but sometimes it’s the only way to get your message across.

@FrenchFancie you sound great, I'm sorry things are so tough right now and you've had zero training Have you done any of the Creative Education free for a week courses online? Or listened to any Pooky Ponders (Pooky Knightsmith) podcasts? I'd really recommend them.

I'm sorry you've been physically hurt. I wonder what is going on for that angry swear child at home to make him that way? I hope you can get some training soon to help you manage difficult situations effectively, for both you and the child (NT or not).

I wish all schools were trauma informed schools

trauma informed schools UK

@Howshouldibehave

So, a TA shouts and you’ve heard ‘stories’ of a teacher that shouts?!

Your thread title is misleading.

Yep, misleading and potentially goady thread title.

I rarely shout, and neither do our TAs. But I did have one child who point blank refused to come in to school one week because apparently I had shouted at her all the time the previous week and she was scared of me.
I pointed out to her mother that I had been absent the entire week.
So, be aware that sometimes, some "recollections may vary."

I’m leaving teaching in July and threads like this remind me why.

I’m not, and never have been, a shouty teacher but god am I fed up with parents who have not one iota of a clue how hard it is to maintain discipline telling teachers how to do their job.

@QueenofLouisiana absolutely nailed it. You try it for 6 weeks and then report back.

I’ve been in education for over 20 years and behaviour gets worse every year - not the big stuff but the low level lack of respect. OP you keep talking about teachers showing respect to the kids - how about the other way around. The constant talking while the teacher is talking, refusing to do what they’re told, “I’m going to tell my mum” attitude has become almost endemic.

And don’t get me started on the culture of parents believing EVERYTHING their kids tell them without question .

@Soontobe60 wow. Was that cathartic for you? Feel better now?

You're absolutely wrong about all your points about me! My TA friends are consummate professionals for a start. You're just reading words on a screen. You've never met me. Please don't judge.

You sound incredibly stressed and at the end of your tether with the DfE/government. I hope you can find some time to look after yourself soon.

@lavenderlou I'm not talking about general shouting in a noisy playground where it's necessary. I'm talking about shouting at the children aggressively and for seemingly not much.

@DinosApple

I'm a TA too. I raise my voice to be heard at lunchtime (outside) because after I have blown my crappy, school issued, hardly whistles whistle I need to tell the children what they need to do, a loud "Line up time!" is needed. Perhaps I should go old school and get a big bell 🤔.

I'm not shouting in anger, I just need to be heard above the melee. It is most necessary with the year 6. They are nearly adult sized, and easily as loud and they play a whole class game. Plus with 6 weeks left they don't care anymore.

The quiet, nice straight line for walking around the school as a class is something our school do. In register order too. We are due for an Ofsted inspection and everyone has told me that this is one of the things they check.

Perhaps the TA has been asked to practice getting them in line in anticipation.

What works for the lower years is to raise your voice so everyone can hear and praise who actually is standing still. That technique doesn't work for older years though!

Dig a little deeper, ask the class teacher or ask another parent what their child says, before complaining though.

Year 6 TA here and agree with this. Year 6 in particular can be hard to control so a firm voice which probably sounds shouty is needed to be heard. I am now working on transition with year 5 as they seem to have forgotten the behaviour expectations. I was told that I am strict by one if the kids the other day. I’m not really but I have had to use my firm voice a lot with them as they have become feral and we need to get the discipline back.

I think we need to start teaching kids differently. The culture of shouting is damaging - that may upset teachers but I don't think they enjoy shouting either. We need to reduce the pressure on teachers and have smaller classes, drop the performance metrics.
We moved schools due to a particularly toxic duo at primary - even the kids that weren't shouted at were distressed by witnessing it - we weren't the only ones - the HT was bloody useless - they got Ofsted Outstanding after we left - so much for that rating.

Maybe she isn’t shouting and just has a loud voice. Oh, and instead of complaining to the head like most whining mums do (and goes against most school’s complaints policy) why not speak to the TA. Bet ya, your child’s perception of the situation is very different to what is actually going on.

@OldScrappyAndHungry that's quite the leap there from me potentially calling to speak to the Head about a concern I have for a TA who seems extremely stressed, to me "telling teachers how to do their jobs"

I don't believe absolutely everything that comes out of my 10yr old's mouth at all. Never said I did. But when he's starting to dread a certain day of the week as this lady does nothing but shout the whole time, it's stuck with me a bit.

So I thought I'd do a quick check online to see if it was totally normal for teaching staff / school staff to shout these days. That's all.

Perhaps I should ask MN to add a "teacher trigger warning" to the thread title...

Your concern wasn’t for the TA. Why even lie?

@Lighttunnelahead

I think we need to start teaching kids differently. The culture of shouting is damaging - that may upset teachers but I don't think they enjoy shouting either. We need to reduce the pressure on teachers and have smaller classes, drop the performance metrics. We moved schools due to a particularly toxic duo at primary - even the kids that weren't shouted at were distressed by witnessing it - we weren't the only ones - the HT was bloody useless - they got Ofsted Outstanding after we left - so much for that rating.

Absolutely. I'm teaching my boys that shouting is not an effective or respectful way to communicate. Treat others how you would like to be treated. My youngest is very anxious and loud noises scare him (opposite to my 10yo!) so I have worries about sending him to this school. If he can be upset by witnessing children being shouted at aggressively to discipline (not just standard noisy playground "year 3 time to line up!" stuff) then others will be too.

Oh god don't be mentioning Ofsted!