Is it too soon to ditch Keir Starter? Is it too late to consider David Milli and?

[CliffordTheBigBlueDog]

Maybe these election results are not all Keir Starmers fault but, even though I was delighted when he was elected leader, I'm beginning to have doubts about his electability.
I saw David Milliband on the TV the other night and thought of what might have been.
I'm not sure if he's even in the Labour party any more.
Andy Burnham is the bookies favourite to be the next leader and maybe he'd be an improvement but I'm not sure.
It's all very depressing.

Just to be clear I didn't say the public was stupid, I said people are now happy to state they know nothing about issues whilst also stating and holding to very strong opinions.

I'm not sure where the floating voters are any more, everyone seems quite entrenched.

The Brexit debate was amazing for that - did anyone change their mind? Or did everyone just stick to their own already held opinions?

Well I’m a floating voter and I see a lot of posts from people like me so no everyone is not entrenched.

Labour are losing them though and need to get them back if they want to win

What happens when people are factually wrong ? Most people are not interested in politics, their understanding of how britain functions is sketchy to say the least. Their perceptions are not always accurate. Sometimes it's more nuanced than they think. Heartfelt opinions v concrete facts. Do we go along with it or try to change people's minds, is that patronising to correct or gently challenge peoples' opinions ? That's a problem labour faces, told they are being sneery, condescending when actually they are trying to open peoples eyes. The whole brexit issue was emotion v real facts. Who cares about the economy when sovereignty is gained or not.

@Onetoomuch

What happens when people are factually wrong ? Most people are not interested in politics, their understanding of how britain functions is sketchy to say the least. Their perceptions are not always accurate. Sometimes it's more nuanced than they think. Heartfelt opinions v concrete facts. Do we go along with it or try to change people's minds, is that patronising to correct or gently challenge peoples' opinions ? That's a problem labour faces, told they are being sneery, condescending when actually they are trying to open peoples eyes. The whole brexit issue was emotion v real facts. Who cares about the economy when sovereignty is gained or not.

I don’t think the nation says I’m rubbish at maths I know nothing but have strong opinions in pp is helping actually.

If you want to beat something like Brexit you need to communicate better. Simply and easily got. See Blair again if you would like centre left approach that garners this.

Positive and optimistic.

I voted remain btw but there’s no point in thinking communication is impossible, it’s getting better at it that will win.

No one could be more removed from the bulk of the Hratlepool electorate than Johnson. or Peter Mandelsson and his ilk in the past.
I don't know why a vote to Leave the EU gets characterised as emotional when all the Remainers I know also voted emotionally. They just disguised it better

Labour need to stop looking backwards and actually listen to what the real, current working and middle class want. Brexit broke the traditional lifelong labour vote; many people who were tribal-labour voted Brexit and, once outside the tent, have seen that ‘their party’ doesn’t speak for them. It doesn’t speak for the windowcleaner with the holiday home in Spain and it doesn’t speak for the zero hours contractors and the minimum wage workers either.
Labour needs to find a centre position, with its feet on the ground, it needs to look at Scandinavian models, and it needs to look at its own roots and founding principles of benefit safety nets from cradle to grave. I hope they do.

I was referring to the numerous posts saying labour were patronising or didn't listen. Sometimes people will say someone's not listening when what they mean is they don't agree with me. Good example is the immigration issue - not black and white, and did play some role in reducing opportunities but not necessarily in the way people think. But if someone says you are not quite right, then the accusations of a failure to hear. Buy you are right - it's the communication that counts. How did labour counter the lies told, probably not very well, whereas Johnson can lie with impunity but he does it with confidence, charm and positivity !

Sometimes people will say someone's not listening when what they mean is they don't agree with me.

The point is that you can't win elections by continuously telling the public that they have the "wrong" opinion.

I know that Labour did really badly but, surely Sir Keir Starmer is a very electable leader. I thought the general population would warm to him.

@NotDavidTennant what if factually they are wrong ? An opinion is just that, a feeling, a perception, not hard reality. That's the dilemma.

Well, tbh, I would never vote labour again.
There is literally nothing they could do to win me back.

Ironically, I actually voted for Corbyn although I was very conflicted about it and questioned if it was he right choice a lot.
When the leader debates started it really became clear to me just how batshit and extreme left wing the party had actually become, especially with the whole self ID and TWAW stance which I could not be more opposed to!

I was hopeful about Starmer as he seemed more sensible and centrist but frankly, he has been a real disappointment.
Abstaining from votes then having the nerve to criticise how Boris was doing things, what kind of opposition is that?!

After losing Hartlepool I thought the party might actually realise that the UK isnt a socialist country and the majority of UK people don’t agree with the left wing ‘woke’ crap and the party needs to go back to being centre to stand any chance of survival but clearly, going by what was said by McDonnell and Abbott and others, they still think the socialist/hard left is the way to go 🤦🏻‍♀️

They no longer represent me.

@percheron67

I know that Labour did really badly but, surely Sir Keir Starmer is a very electable leader. I thought the general population would warm to him.

He's got two barriers. First, for some reason the media don't like him, which is a shame. Second, he can't find the backbone to do what's needed...because he hasn't sufficient support from within his party. It's an impossible task without support.

Unfortunately he's in a minority of being relatively decent, when it comes to the current Labour party.

Much of the present day problems suffered by the Labour Party (and the country as a whole) are the legacy of Blair. He made it so that personality and style (however fake) became the priority over decent long term policies. Long term being the key. He was the master of short termism. It was also under the Blair government that identity politics started to creep in.

As for the Blair government's treatment of the disabled. Remember who introduced the cuts reforms and private 'aasessments'.

The last thing this country needs is another snake oil salesman like Blair.

It was the damage done by Blair that led to the party electing Corbyn - and it was the ghosts of Blair and Corbyn that lost Labour Hartlepool.

the last thing this country needs is a snake oil salesman like blair And johnson.

I don’t mind Starmer and had higher hopes but he has a tough gig and I’m not sure the public will warm to him enough

The media aren’t as harsh as they were for say, Ed, but it still feels difficult to get a sense of what he is going for. This might change as pandemic passes

Although his nursery proclamation annoyed me irreversibly

@NotDavidTennant

Sometimes people will say someone's not listening when what they mean is they don't agree with me.

The point is that you can't win elections by continuously telling the public that they have the "wrong" opinion.

No, quite. But then on the other hand is there any point winning an election if you have compromised too much? I don't proclaim to know the answer but these are interesting questions.

The old working class = Labour / middle class = Tory political alignment has gone it seems.

Thought this chart very interesting - shows Labour's current problem, but also Tories' future problem? twitter.com/undertheraedar/status/1391092062829809666

@MattyGroves

I don't really understand why anyone thinks David Miliband would have been so great. Also don't get why it was fine for David to run against Ed but not vice versa.

I also think Ed was in principle appealing but the media just really really hated him. The bacon sandwich thing was just ridiculous

Generally agree. Ed won a democratic election under the rules of the time.

If something unfortunate happens to BoJo (e.g. the zipwire) the media spin it in his favour.

@Onetoomuch

Agree, the tories are the most successful, oldest political party in the world for a reason. Loyalty, ruthlessness, an ability to shapeshift and sheer determination to win. Labour could learn a lot from them. I despair of the pointless melodrama and infighting, especially now Angela Rayner has been sacked. It's so sad. Maybe Dominic Cummings could help them And yes this is a small state government. All the tosh about them trying to control us is so far from the mark.

Loyalty, ruthlessness, an ability to shapeshift and sheer determination to win. Labour could learn a lot from them.

Good luck with selling that idea to Labour members. I've been saying it since Jim Callaghan was PM but put the good of the party before their own personal beliefs! Most Labour members would die first. "Compromise" is a dirty word.

[quote Onetoomuch]@NotDavidTennant what if factually they are wrong ? An opinion is just that, a feeling, a perception, not hard reality. That's the dilemma.[/quote]
Who cares if they are "factually wrong"? All you want is their "X" in the right box on election day. Everything else is irrelevant. They can think what they like - just so long as they vote the right way.

Agree @FaceyRomford too bothered about socialist bl*y purity than winning an election. They are trying to string Starmer up now and clamouring for him to be deposed. Still don't get that Corbyn was toxic.