Is it too soon to ditch Keir Starter? Is it too late to consider David Milli and?

[CliffordTheBigBlueDog]

Maybe these election results are not all Keir Starmers fault but, even though I was delighted when he was elected leader, I'm beginning to have doubts about his electability.
I saw David Milliband on the TV the other night and thought of what might have been.
I'm not sure if he's even in the Labour party any more.
Andy Burnham is the bookies favourite to be the next leader and maybe he'd be an improvement but I'm not sure.
It's all very depressing.

I think the whole 'too northern' 'too southern' thing is nonsense tbh. It partonises others, and if you yourself wouldn't vote for the person you felt was the best political choice because they were from a region you are not, I think you are being silly.

No one could be more removed from the bulk of the Hratlepool electorate than Johnson.

It is not helpful to generalise about why that many people in Hartlepool voted for Johnson. Lots of issues will have come into play - Brexit, Covid, Johnson's personality, Corbyn, Labour's perceived out-of-touchness, Starmer's issues. I don't think the fact Starmer is from the South is a big factor really.

But it makes sense that spending a lot will bring growth - how sustainable is it? Ask Merkel.

@picturesandpickles

But it makes sense that spending a lot will bring growth - how sustainable is it? Ask Merkel.

God I loathe the left way of responding puts me off and makes me think they deserve political obscurity they’ll get.

But then I do want a centrist party that keeps an eye on inequality, so I hope Starmer can change things and move towards centre ground successfully. A pandemic is a hard gig as opposition.

I don’t agree that South or elite is an issue as obviously Johnson is both those things. But Starmer needs to work harder to connect and communicate.

Gosh, can't believe that bloody note is still being mentioned. The poor chap who wrote it has written about how much he regrets doing so and what he actually meant by it. There's plenty of info out there about the economic success of the two parties over the years and it seems pretty even to me. If that's important to you when voting it's probably a good idea to look it up.

One of the most annoying things about Labour under EM wasn't just that he was the wrong brother, but that they allowed themselves to take the blame for the worldwide financial crash while not being proud of, for example, Brown's response, which stopped it from being a lot worse. Any party would have had to make cuts in the aftermath, but the depth the Tories went to and some of their targets (bedroom tax, CB) were clearly ideologically driven.

@flyingtartar

Gosh, can't believe that bloody note is still being mentioned. The poor chap who wrote it has written about how much he regrets doing so and what he actually meant by it. There's plenty of info out there about the economic success of the two parties over the years and it seems pretty even to me. If that's important to you when voting it's probably a good idea to look it up.

One of the most annoying things about Labour under EM wasn't just that he was the wrong brother, but that they allowed themselves to take the blame for the worldwide financial crash while not being proud of, for example, Brown's response, which stopped it from being a lot worse. Any party would have had to make cuts in the aftermath, but the depth the Tories went to and some of their targets (bedroom tax, CB) were clearly ideologically driven.

Why can’t people explain if they’re so convinced they’re right?

It seems the left use insults and superiority as core way to communicate.

The results of that are in the votes.

"God I hate the left way of responding* sorry but lazy assumptions. Someone challenges and they are accused of being a 'lefty'. It's open season for criticism of labour, most of it entirely deserved I hate to say but when supporters do counter it with decent arguments they just get dismissed as 'not listening'.

@Onetoomuch

"God I hate the left way of responding* sorry but lazy assumptions. Someone challenges and they are accused of being a 'lefty'. It's open season for criticism of labour, most of it entirely deserved I hate to say but when supporters do counter it with decent arguments they just get dismissed as 'not listening'.

I’m asking for decent arguments but getting look it up if it’s so important to you and quips re Merkel.

That position is wearing and makes people think sod that. Labour are losing and no one is ready to look at why.

Explain what?? I've said the note was regretted by its author and certainly not meant as an indictment of the LAbour government. Here's a full explanation if you want it:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

I'm not going to explain the economic success and failings of all the post-war governments as that would be rather a long post and I certainly don't consider myself an expert. I do know that it's not a simple case of Tory - great/frugal/sensible, and Labour - shit/spend all the money. I don't have it as a priority when I vote but if you do surely it's up to you to find out the info you want rather than blaming 'the left' for not explaining. Having said that, as I said, I did find it annoying during Miliband's tenure that they didn't shout enough about their achievements and didn't do enough to counter the narrative that they (Labour) had caused the worldwide crash. They allowed the Tories to set the agenda and I suppose they were afraid of being jumped on by the rw press as not taking responsibility but it was a mistake. People parroting 'we need to live within our means' like the country works in the same way as a household got really bloody irritating during those years, but I have to admit the Tories were brilliant at getting the country to accept that as 'fact' and Labour just let it happen.

I've also given two examples of policies the Tories put in place that I believe were ideologically driven rather than a pragmatic response to the crash. Not sure why you've quoted me as not explaining anything.

I can't link but there is loads of stuff on the internet discussing who has a better track record on the economy. It's not black or white. Labour woefully defended their economic record and achievements allowing the belief that they squandered money to fester and grow.

I don’t doubt it’s complex.

Even the relative success of centre left or right countries.

I haven’t made strong statements either way but asked why people are sure one way or another, afaik I’d have to go back to studying economics (over twenty years ago now) to get a more decent handle on it right now.

Economists don’t agree either and exist on a spectrum from state spending to not. It’s a hefty topic and hard to encapsulate quickly.

But imo discussing and trying to understand the other side is better than just quips etc

@MarshaBradyo Agree. People get touchy. I'm trying to keep off these threads not very successfully but when everyone is full of negativity it's a bit depressing. Labour's achievements in government were positive and longlasting (obviously Iraq war not included). Labour are clearly doing something wrong at the moment but the flood of repeated insults is just pointless now.

KS is too little too late. Yes, David Milliband could have steered the ship but instead they chose to wreck themselves on the iceberg.

Merkel is centre right, good economic policy is not a left-right thing, UK current Conservatove economics is one form of r-w economics - a failing form.

The probem is people repeat the soundbites about the note etc but clearly don't undersatnd the polcitical choices being made in our country and others.

Excuse typos, was one-handed!

I think you need to move past talking about the note it wasn’t the main point of the post which was asking how sustainable Labour’s policies were. If I could edit that sentence out I would as people aren’t answering the main question now.

One I agree. I actually lament a more successful Labour Party. One that brings optimism and opportunity and atm it feels very depressing.

Many good commentators this morning saying that a pandemic is a hard time to do this. I actually do want Starmer to get going a bit.

The probem is people repeat the soundbites about the note etc but clearly don't undersatnd the polcitical choices being made in our country and others.

Again this- other people have low understanding.

I’d say it’s a complex issue and I have a reasonable amount of understanding but always up from hearing from people who think they have better insight - hence the questions.

I think there's a bit of a pattern of Labour introducing things that the Tories slate but then keep. Even the NHS itself then the national minimum wage that was supposedly going to bankrupt thousands of companies. More recently they 'stole' the Labour policy of raising the living wage. Their under-funding of the NHS over the last decade is one of the reasons it was in danger of collapse during the pandemic. I think that happens a lot- services get run down by the Tories then Labour have to do a big cash injection to save them. Schools were horribly under-funded when I was at school during the '80s-'90s for example. It was all portacabins and one book between 3.

Pissing millions away on schemes run by their mates that didn't work wasn't very prudent.

Then there's Brexit. Rushing through an extremely risky policy that their own forecasts said would be damaging economically on the back of a pandemic, and very hard version of it at that... It's hardly prudent. The very opposite in fact. The impact is already becoming apparent and it's not good. When the full cost becomes clear I think they will well and truly have lost their reputation for economic prudence as they put ideology ahead of everything with that one. The only question is will they get away with it by blaming it all on Covid? Probably .

I think Ed Balls (I know he is no longer an MP) but I think he is probably a bit too nice of a person to do what is needed in the Labour party.

One thing the Tories have done very successfully is simplify their messages so they achieve excellent cut through.

The line goes that in politics if you are explaining, you're losing.

The biggest myth of all is the deliberate impression given that national economies must stay 'within their means' as if the Chancellor is budgeting for bread and milk with his housekeeping. This was actively pushed by sections of the right post-crash as they could not of course blame the real issue of banks and finance, and policy choices.

A national economy is light years away from a household budget, but people regularly assert that the Tories are watching the pennies and Labour always using the credit card.

How anyone corrects this misunderstanding I don't know, in the same was as in the UK it is acceptable to say 'I am rubbsh at maths' it is also now acceptable to say 'I am completely ignorant of how our country works' - whilst still holding very strong opinions based on incorrect assumptions. This is going to be a challenge going forwards.

@GiveMeTulipsfromAmsterdam

It's not the leader that is the problem though.

No matter how shit the tories are people still vote for them, for what they know ....the propaganda against the Labour Party started years ago still persists so the 'can't vote labour' continues 🙄

So more pot holes and poor public services for us here. More of the same with rich getting richer. The poor even appear to vote for that

Yep. 'Can't' vote labour because of Corbyn. 'Can't' vote labour because of Starmer. When they get rid of Starmer it'll be can't vote labour because of whichever poor sod they get as leader next. And yet these voters who can't bring themselves to vote for labour hate Boris Johnson and the conservatives but apparently a Tory government is preferable to Keir Starmer as PM

@picturesandpickles

One thing the Tories have done very successfully is simplify their messages so they achieve excellent cut through.

The line goes that in politics if you are explaining, you're losing.

The biggest myth of all is the deliberate impression given that national economies must stay 'within their means' as if the Chancellor is budgeting for bread and milk with his housekeeping. This was actively pushed by sections of the right post-crash as they could not of course blame the real issue of banks and finance, and policy choices.

A national economy is light years away from a household budget, but people regularly assert that the Tories are watching the pennies and Labour always using the credit card.

How anyone corrects this misunderstanding I don't know, in the same was as in the UK it is acceptable to say 'I am rubbsh at maths' it is also now acceptable to say 'I am completely ignorant of how our country works' - whilst still holding very strong opinions based on incorrect assumptions. This is going to be a challenge going forwards.

No here’s your biggest issue. Your supposed superiority. It turns people off in droves.

@picturesandpickles

One thing the Tories have done very successfully is simplify their messages so they achieve excellent cut through.

The line goes that in politics if you are explaining, you're losing.

The biggest myth of all is the deliberate impression given that national economies must stay 'within their means' as if the Chancellor is budgeting for bread and milk with his housekeeping. This was actively pushed by sections of the right post-crash as they could not of course blame the real issue of banks and finance, and policy choices.

A national economy is light years away from a household budget, but people regularly assert that the Tories are watching the pennies and Labour always using the credit card.

How anyone corrects this misunderstanding I don't know, in the same was as in the UK it is acceptable to say 'I am rubbsh at maths' it is also now acceptable to say 'I am completely ignorant of how our country works' - whilst still holding very strong opinions based on incorrect assumptions. This is going to be a challenge going forwards.

GCSE politics should be mandatory.

I haven’t seen much from the supposed left when they get upset about people ‘caring about the economy over lives’ repeated on here.

Economics should be mandatory.

Your supposed superiority.

Not sure who 'your' is supposed to mean in this sentence, whether about me personally or me as some perceived representative of the left or Labour. Just to be clear, I'm a middle-aged person currently avoiding doing the washing up, not some superior being.

Labour can communicate simply as Blair showed. What he was saying was understood and liked.

If they can’t now it’s not because the public is too stupid but because they can’t think how to do it well.