Anyone in Hartlepool - what on earth is going on

[Purplecatshopaholic]

Genuine question. (Apologies if this is in the wrong place, I don’t post much). I’m Scottish and in Scotland, and I am constantly aware these days of how different the views are of Westminster up here, to across the border sometimes. We also have our own Labour Party leader up here. But really? Is Keir Starmer that bad? Are other parties not available? Who on earth is still voting for Boris…? Any WHY?

[quote supermoonrising]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
And yet it’s the Tory Party members (50% was it?) who said they were firmly against a Muslim PM and that “Islam was a threat to the British way of life”. Which is the Party of hatred, sorry?[/quote]
Sorry, you seem to be confused. I never mentioned the tories in my post. I explained why people are moving away from voting Labour.
I suppose it boils down to feeling betrayed. Voting all those years for a party who now despises you.
I’m a traditionally a floating voter. Although, admittedly I haven’t voted for a few years now because I can’t distinguish between all the lying finger pointers anymore.

I agree, but by giving women "a leg up", you risk giving the job to someone who simply isn't suitable for it. Rather than "giving women a leg up", we should be concentrating on the level playing field instead. All women short lists, giving additional weighting just for being a woman, etc., isn't the right way of doing that. In fact, it's just a lazy way of promoting women by holding equally (or better) suited men back. We need to get to the position where the best person gets the job regardless of their sex.

Agree with this to some extent.

Why should a more able/suitable bloke be passed over so that a less able/suitable woman can be promoted instead just for the sake of equality?

They shouldn't. However, for decades we have been giving jobs to less suitable men over more suitable women, because we judge women more harshly. There is data that proves we do this. Change a name on a CV from Jane Smith to John Smith and the salary that's offered will go up. So actually in that scenario, additional weighting for being a woman, may just be counteracting a bias on the assessor's part to give less weighting because someone is a woman. There may well be better ways to tackle that initial bias, but we do need to tackle it.

@MarshaBradyo

The Conservative party is right wing, and maybe further away from the centre than it has been for some time, but it isn't 'Far Right'

No it’s not far right but his are you measuring the shift away from centre?

Some things such as size of state spend push it towards centre.

Yes, okay, far right was the wrong expression but I was responding to a poster saying that anyone 'non-woke' would now vote Tory and there is no longer a division between right and left wing. This is a very right wing government and I struggle to see how people who are small c conservatives can vote for them.

Yes, they have spent a lot but to say that makes them a centrist party is extremely disingenuous as most of that has been as a direct result of the pandemic. We don't know how they'd be faring now if it wasn't for that.

It's the bloody woke agenda. Which proper working class people i.e. people who actually go out and do a hard day's work for minimal money simply don't have time for

I raise you my 15 grand a year (before tax, term time) and my guardian subscription. lol.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate labour are losing Scotland to the SNP, no? For a number of people I know, a big appeal of independence is to get away from the situation where the UK govt can overrule what Scotland has voted for. (Hello brexit)

If we define ‘woke’ as ‘alert to social and racial injustice’ - what is different about ‘woke’ from old Labour values?

I remember when it used to mean that. Now its just a cover for racism, homophobia and misogyny by white men who claim to be the most oppressed.

Hope you shouted back that, no, it’s people like them that mean the Tories will win the seat.

I just closed and locked the door in their face. They did continue shouting at my front door for a minute or so

I wish I'd thought to shout that back at them though.

AsMuch is right.

however as Tory I don't mind if Labour are never elected again. The Tories got in in 2019 because they were a middle of the road, high tax big spending party (as has come to pass) so no wonder Labour voters have moved to them in droves- the middle always wins in the UK.

The Tories are not what I want but better than Labour would have been. I want very small state, much lower spending and very low tax and more freedom.

@Chloemol

What a stupid post. People can vote for whoever they wish and don’t have to explain

That said MN seems very much a Labour supporting site, and I have no idea why anyone would want to support them, but I don’t come in here looking for explanations as. It’s down to individual choice and nothing to do with me
,

What a stupid post.

Personally I'm very interested in knowing why people voted Tory in Hartlepool, particularly as it forms a bellwether regarding the direction of travel. Therefore has quite a lot to 'do with me'.

I don't know how anyone can be surprised that many ex Labour voters in Leave areas have turned against them after The People's Vote cringefest. I voted Remain and vote Labour but it was utterly predictable that this would happen.

@Redwinestillfine

What I don't get is the newspaper headlines indicating the 'left' of the labour party feeling vindicated. If people are voting Tory it's not a move further left that's required. It's probably a mixture of factors (as is everything) but the woke agenda and unclear policies aren't helping.

In this respect, I do feel sorry for Starmer and think the party overall is fucked in the long-term. People are saying it’s because the party moved to the centre-left. I don’t think so. I think it’s because Starmer’s had to appease Momentum and not moved definitively to the centre-left. His shadow cabinet is stacked with Corbynites. All terrible at their jobs. The facts don’t lie - like him or loathe him, Blair kept Labour in power for years by moving to the centre-left. Of course he had his massive failures, but things like New Deal, Sure Start, NMW etc were likeable, positive, aspirational policies.

And I really don’t think trans issues have the traction MN thinks they do with the wider population.

Of course you think that because in real life women keep quiet it. Too many of us have been frightened into silence. Any opinion which disagrees with the new gender orthodoxy is likely to elicit death/rape threats, actual physical violence, being reported to your employer, losing your job, being no platformed or arrested for a hate crime. All of these oppressive actions are perpetrated by authoritarian hard left activists with the tacit support of the woke obsessed Labour Party.

@RedToothBrush

Four main reasons: 1) Culturally Labour aren't hitting the mark. They are more concerned about identity politics than solving the economically led problems of the working class. There is a feeling that the priorities of the party don't match everyday priorities. 2) I think there is a growing sense of frustration and annoyance eith Labour at a local level. They've been in control of some councils and constituencies for decades and life has steadily got worse not better. There is a feeling that Labour takes votes for granted and more worryingly that the party is corrupt on a local level. Local representatives are only doing it for self interest and those of their mates. 3) Tapping back into point 2, this by-election in Hartlepool has been shambolic for Labour. Its been marked by party infighting, factional splits leading to effectively having multiple candidates stand as members have fallen out and left the party to stand on their own terms. 4) An overall lack of direction by the party. There's no coherent reason to vote FOR Labour. No one knows what they stand for. The Tories have got a message about change, levelling up regionally, and representating ordinary working class people (rather than the middle class alone) across well).

The fact Labour are floundering and unable to understand whats going on, only reinforces this idea of them being out of touch with real voters. It has come up in many political opinion polls and focus groups that the Labour membership has very different ideas to the general public over what they want and this is essentially the issue. The Labour membership are telling everyone what to do in a morality and puritanical way rather than listening adequately. Too many encounters, either in person or online with Labour representatives smugly and bluntly telling the electorate that they are wrong, bigotted or ignorant haven't gone down well. All those people blocked for disagreeing on twitter has consequences.

I'm not in Hartlepool - but another traditional labour area and I think this is a nice summary.

I also find it odd that posters here claim to be surpised at the result in Hartlepool as it's been on the cards for weeks and internal labour polling was being quoted yesterday in the news showing they were facing defeat.

But they think Boris does?

Presumably more so than they feel the current incarnation of the Labour Party does, yes. Perhaps not fully representative, or representative in all the ways that they would prefer, but in the rock/hard place voting options, more so than the Labour Party.

I don't understand why that is difficult for people to understand. Members of the public have walked into a polling station to make a choice between the proffered options, and have selected what they feel to be the least unpalatable of the available options. In many cases this may not be a 'pro Tory' vote so much as an 'anti Labour' vote.

The response of large swathes of the left is not to consider why people do not see them as a viable choice and address those issues, but to parry terms such as 'gullible', 'thick' and 'brainwashed'.

Remember Churchill and the 1945 election.

Yes, I think this took the upper classes completely by surprise. But the difference then was that there had been a huge social upheaval with people moved around the country, and exposed to new places and experiences, and also they could see that the old forlock tugging ways hadn't served them previously. In addition, Attlee as Deputy PM had effectively been running the country on a day to day basis, and they had a vision underpinned by the Beveridge report as to what a better future might look like. We don't see much of that now.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
Sorry, I'm not confused. You said "Labour is fuelled by hatred". Clearly implying that is not the case for other major parties. I just pointed out that your statement about Labour, when taken in context of British voters and the UK party political landscape, has very little to back it up.

In short, Brexit. As others have said, Brexit party were popular last time but they’re now pretty much defunct (I don’t think many will vote for the ‘reform party’) so the tories have snatched the far right vote basically. If it’s a choice between the left and tories, they’re always going to go with the tories even though it’s turkeys voting for Christmas.

I think supermoonrising is a brilliant example of the complete inability to listen that is symptomatic of much of the left at this point. Determined to explain how everyone else is just not understanding rather than accepting that people understand perfectly well they just don't agree with her.

@Viviennemary

I voted Labour this time though I only changed my mind because of wallpapergate. I have intended to vote Conservative. People have just moved away from socialism. Thry want better for their own families and they don't want to pay higher taxes towards supporting folk that are perfectly capable of supporting themselves.

Regarding 'paying higher taxes' to support people capable of supporting themselves....

Possibly the most socialist thing to happen over the past year, plus, is the ruinously expensive furlough scheme! Instigated by the Tories, and running til September!

My DB has been furloughed since Day One. He had a lovely summer riding his electric bike around the countryside! So nice, in fact, that he's upgraded it for an even better bike to enjoy this summer!

Yes, he got a PT job supermarket delivering, but he didn't like it because there was weekend work. So he stopped.

I resent paying my taxes for that, personally.

Maybe its not so much about how good the incumbent party is but about how shite the opposition is.

I think hamstersarse has it
'People just want jobs

They don’t want politicians wanging on about identity politics and how awful we all are'

Hmm putting womens' rights before everything else is interesting - I figure you're much more disadvantaged just being poor in this country than being a woman? Not sure it's enough reason to vote conservative even if that is your view ... sure you're not being played on this one?

[quote supermoonrising]@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
Sorry, I'm not confused. You said "Labour is fuelled by hatred". Clearly implying that is not the case for other major parties. I just pointed out that your statement about Labour, when taken in context of British voters and the UK party political landscape, has very little to back it up.[/quote]
This is exactly what I was talking about. You’re reducing it to “us vs them. You’re either with us or against us” mentality.
It’s possible for other parties to display examples of the same disgusting behaviour.
They’re not mutually exclusive.

I’m talking about why Labour are losing voters but you automatically want to stop that discussion and turn the conversation to where the tories are in the wrong.

This is why you are losing voters. You won’t listen to anyone else because you reduce us to being tories or part of the problem if we won’t bend to your opinions.

90% of the media is right wing controlled.
The right are much better at managing social media
People do believe what they read.
Labour spent so much time infighting they forgot the real enemies.

@korawick12345

I think supermoonrising is a brilliant example of the complete inability to listen that is symptomatic of much of the left at this point. Determined to explain how everyone else is just not understanding rather than accepting that people understand perfectly well they just don't agree with her.

Ah you put it more succinctly than me! Haha