What do the Labour party need to do to stop their slow death?

[flashbac]

I'll start:

Starmer needs to stop acting like a rabbit in the headlights and actually stand for something. He has no charisma or gravitas. We want someone with a personality. Stand for something Starmer!

Stop pandering to the 'red wall'. Inspire people to vote for the party with some good policies instead of flip flopping about.

Have some inspiring and uplifting policies like:

• Free childcare for working parents
• making public transport normal and affordable
• subsidised green energy initiatives to help householders lower energy bills eg solar panels etc

And they NEED to distance themselves from that anti science TWAW stance. I'm all for being kind but a blanket dilution of what 'woman' means is regressive.

The incumbent gets 30k of tax payers money to refit the flat.... i guess it comes down to what the donor expects gets in return for their 200k "donation"

230k for a flat make over... yet Labour are out of touch?

On the flat I personally don't think any incumbent should be lavishing large amounts of cash revamping to a particular personal style what is essentially a 'company' (for want of a better word) house.

The living quarters of the property should absolutely be of the standard expected for modern life today, the incumbents should bring their own possessions to personalise it but they should not be doing a total makeover to suit their particular taste which will then be re-done by the next incumbent who doesn't like the previous incumbent's taste, irrespective of who is footing the bill.

I disagree with someone upthread who said the WC are not political.

They are - and have a long, strong and successful history of being so. However, right now the WC are not the people making it to the top.

Sir Keir has not a fucking clue what it means to be WC - and neither do many of his close colleagues. That is a problem.

Because of it, they are unable to fully appreciate what really matters to their traditonal voter base.

• Job availability and employment protection
• Housing, including proper tenant rights and security for the generations that will struggle to buy a home
• Healthcare; the NHS including dentistry and elderly care
• A strong state, including strength in areas such as utilities provisioning (power, water, transport) and crime control

I really wanted Starmer to be the answer, but he's not. He's been fucking useless.

All that being true, left wing parties seem to be in trouble everywhere. I really think we are seeing the threat of facism in the West. Not immediately and maybe not for many years - but the pendulum has started to swing and I don't like the direction it's going in.

Partly, that is the cause of the fall of the left but partly it is also the effect of it. A weak left creates a gap for facism to move in to.

I have to admit, I'm sneery about Tory voters. In my head, how can you not be a bit hmm about people who have voted for these lying, corrupt "let the bodies pile up" bastards (especially BJ) but this thread has made me reflect on that a bit. I'm not saying I understand it fully (why not just spoil your vote then?) but it's made me think on it.

I don't sneer at people who hold different political beliefs to me because I'm an adult capable of respecting others opinions. You have highlighted a number of ways in which the conservative party are awful but rather than wonder if labour are losing support because they are perceived as a worse option you appear to have reached the conclusion that only stupid people think differently to you.

I am also influenced by having grown up in a very working class, Tory voting household; my parents would have given you the shirt off their back if you needed it, neither were disengaged from politics, far from it. My mother told me she was financially better off under the Tories and my dad actually had work. Things may have changed but people still have a right to hold their own views without being branded scum.

I started spoiling my ballot after the Lib Dems formed a coalition with the conservatives. I have not found an alternative I can hold my nose and vote for since so I'm now considering voting conservative to give labour a bloody nose at the next GE in the vain hope they might pause to reflect on how they are coming across. Both Labour and the Lib Dems have told me I'm a bigot and they don't want vote because I believe in biological sex, why would I vote for parties who hold me in contempt?

@BronwenFrideswide

The incumbent gets 30k of tax payers money to refit the flat.... i guess it comes down to what the donor expects gets in return for their 200k "donation"

230k for a flat make over... yet Labour are out of touch?

On the flat I personally don't think any incumbent should be lavishing large amounts of cash revamping to a particular personal style what is essentially a 'company' (for want of a better word) house.

The living quarters of the property should absolutely be of the standard expected for modern life today, the incumbents should bring their own possessions to personalise it but they should not be doing a total makeover to suit their particular taste which will then be re-done by the next incumbent who doesn't like the previous incumbent's taste, irrespective of who is footing the bill.

£250k is pretty "normal" in some circles. The Vice Chancellor at my son's university had £250k spent on his Uni-provided accommodation when he took over and moved in. It's not right that so much money is spent, but it's not the first time and won't be the last.

Keir Starmer was the son of a toolmaker and nurse, w/c boy done good
Working class agreed did have a long proud history but then came the strikes and consequent disruption to ordinary w/c peoples' lives. And above all Thatcher and her spat with the miners. Public opinion has changed and now working people despise them, rightly or wrongly. Years of subtle indoctrination has radically changed people's concept of what community means.
The m/c has meanwhile become more vocal in the LP. They have the time, money and inclination. I suppose the objective should be how to encourage the working class to participate too and contribute to policy formation. I guess that's why focus groups have become so popular to fill the gap...

I’m one of the few that liked Tony Blair ( for me David Cameron got off lightly and did as much damage) , I hoped K S would be a good leader, but this agreeing with the govt stance has went on far too long! Agreeing with the science yes, but agreeing with the govt needs to stop. They need to win back Scotland by showing up all the broken promises the SNP have made, their are many to choose from, superhospitals don’t work it covers too large a population, elderly people left on trolleys waiting hours to be seen. Educational attainment is down and child poverty rates up.
Have someone like Ruth Davidson, standing up to Nicola Sturgeon and call out all the ridiculous economic promises she makes, doubling pensions 4 day weeks for all etc etc and show how much debt we will all be in if it goes ahead.
Every time she wants more additional money from Westminster or doesn’t carry out policies which are devolved and their responsibility , Labour should be all over it shouting from the rooftops. Instead we hear zero, tumble weed blowing , allowing the SNP to carry on destroying the union and ruining my country.

[quote Onetoomuch]@SunsetBeetch agree but the tories surely have to be accountable for their actions.
In the end you go with your own moral convictions, what to you is right and wrong. I see corruption and I don't like it, some won't be bothered. Fair enough.[/quote]
You just can't help yourself with the snidey digs and affectations of moral superiority can you? Like many still involved with Labour.

Neither I nor anyone else has said they aren't bothered - it's just not going to convince me to vote Labour, because they have their own issues which I dislike too.

Christ on a bike...

@TruelyWonder

People see corruption etc on one side and awomans rights, racism etc on the other. That is why they are saying they will spoil their papers. That is why people are discussing on this thread who to fix labour. Because they don't want to vote Tory! Of course it would be great if we still had an alternative in Lib Dem 😏

Indeed. It's amazing that one man (Nick Clegg) could do so much damage to a major political party. But then again, it was Clegg being a "yes man" that made them popular in the first place. It's easy to promise things when you know you're not going to get elected and have to follow through (Corbyn!).

We could well be looking at the Labour party breaking up again like it did in 1981 when the social democratic party was formed by 4 senior Labour moderates. It's history repeating itself.

Anyway it's like talking to a brick wall, so I'm outta here.

Keir Starmer was the son of a toolmaker and nurse, w/c boy done good confused

Fair call out. I knew his elite schooling background but not that it was a merit scholarship. My bad for not looking him up before commenting.

£250k is pretty "normal" in some circles. The Vice Chancellor at my son's university had £250k spent on his Uni-provided accommodation when he took over and moved in. It's not right that so much money is spent, but it's not the first time and won't be the last

Its not the amounts, its where the money comes from and who is providing it and most importantly... why?

Would you be happy if a donor gave 200k and then was awarded perhaps a shipping or an NHS contract despite no expertise in either? not that any such thing could ever happen here in the UK.

Maybe many people wouldn't mind?

@SirDidymus

Keir Starmer was the son of a toolmaker and nurse, w/c boy done good confused

Fair call out. I knew his elite schooling background but not that it was a merit scholarship. My bad for not looking him up before commenting.

Remember when a tory supporting newspaper ('Mail i think) said Starmer owned land, ripe for development, worth 10m with planning it never had.... when in fact it was a field he got for his parents to look after rescue donkeys.

The narrative we have on Labour is messed up and people form opinions based on it.

Keir Starmer was the son of a toolmaker

If his father's own boasting is to be believed then he owned the factory. Nothing wrong with that but why pretend to be something you are not?

Its not the amounts, its where the money comes from and who is providing it and most importantly... why?

If the incumbent wants to splash £250k on items for the flat then those items should be paid for out of their own pocket, the items will belong to them and be removed with them at the end of their tenure. Said items must be removable, cause no major alteration or damage to the property.

@FOJN can't find that anywhere tbh. Can you link it ?

@FOJN

Keir Starmer was the son of a toolmaker

If his father's own boasting is to be believed then he owned the factory. Nothing wrong with that but why pretend to be something you are not?

I believe Keir Starmer says he wasn't close to his father and "owning a factory" covers everything from James Dyson to my FiL, a man who had a small unit with 2 lathes in it and welding machine, he was a toolmaker/engineer who learned his trade in the Navy and Devonport dockyard.

Many w/c people are tradespersons who own their own businesses.

I thought that Keir Starmer was from a single parent family where mother was a nurse - shows how much attention I've been paying no idea about land allegaitions or what school he went to - though knew he'd been a repected barrister.

I do know first minister here had to live in shed at the bottom of his garden during covid because his wife and DIL had to shield - which must have been hard - while I think he really cares about many issues doesn't make me think the policies I've seen from his party or their record is worth voting for.

I'm not sure where I am with the flat thing - I mean it sounds bad but this is a guy who's lied repeatedly to parliment plus has the whiff of Cummings backstabbing about it - on other hand it's nice to see Labour front bench taking an interest in holding the government to account and even getting some press traction.

If his father's own boasting is to be believed then he owned the factory. Nothing wrong with that but why pretend to be something you are not?

Because if there’s one thing Labour activists hate it’s posh people - even though many of the activists are posh and some privately educated.
Their favourite insults are variations on ‘public school git’ even though evidently the voters don’t seem too bothered by where politicians go to school

@SirDidymus

Keir Starmer was the son of a toolmaker and nurse, w/c boy done good confused

Fair call out. I knew his elite schooling background but not that it was a merit scholarship. My bad for not looking him up before commenting.

He passed the 11+, presumably after attending a local primary school, and went to a nearby grammar school, which left the state system while he was there and presumably honoured its commitment to educate the pupils it already had. Then he went to the University of Leeds. 'Elite schooling' makes it sound as if he went to Eton and Oxford.

Yes, confirmed - local primary school. His father worked very long hours and his mother was severely disabled with an autoimmune condition and spent a lot of time in hospital. He took a gap year before going to Leeds and spent six months working with disabled children and six months working in a factory. First in his family to go to university. Not his fault he grew up in Surrey. Not everyone in Surrey is a stockbroker.

www.barntheatreoxted.co.uk/BTN_Aug14.pdf

boris is allowed to redecorate using whatever funds he likes, boris ordered ventilators from companies with no previous technical experience in manufacturing them but ignored reputable companies that did

Mercedes F1 did a fantastic job, they hadn't made ventilators before but had transferable skills resulting in a really rapid turnaround. That's what the public want.

@FOJN

I have to admit, I'm sneery about Tory voters. In my head, how can you not be a bit hmm about people who have voted for these lying, corrupt "let the bodies pile up" bastards (especially BJ) but this thread has made me reflect on that a bit. I'm not saying I understand it fully (why not just spoil your vote then?) but it's made me think on it.

I don't sneer at people who hold different political beliefs to me because I'm an adult capable of respecting others opinions. You have highlighted a number of ways in which the conservative party are awful but rather than wonder if labour are losing support because they are perceived as a worse option you appear to have reached the conclusion that only stupid people think differently to you.

I am also influenced by having grown up in a very working class, Tory voting household; my parents would have given you the shirt off their back if you needed it, neither were disengaged from politics, far from it. My mother told me she was financially better off under the Tories and my dad actually had work. Things may have changed but people still have a right to hold their own views without being branded scum.

I started spoiling my ballot after the Lib Dems formed a coalition with the conservatives. I have not found an alternative I can hold my nose and vote for since so I'm now considering voting conservative to give labour a bloody nose at the next GE in the vain hope they might pause to reflect on how they are coming across. Both Labour and the Lib Dems have told me I'm a bigot and they don't want vote because I believe in biological sex, why would I vote for parties who hold me in contempt?

But these Tories are something else entirely. To vote for these lot... I don't get it. Labour are shit but that doesn't convert my vote to the current lot who are asset stripping the nation.

@OooMrRigsby So it was Boris johnsons idea then ? Or rather they contacted the government....
Like one of his ministers yesterday said Boris had vaccinated so many millions of people
Funny how they aren't taking responsibility for NHS track and trace or however many 1000s of deaths due to delayed lockdown, that will be brushed under the carpet.

My voting options

Tory : No because of austerity and sleaze and Brexit

Libdem /Green : No because they do not recognise women

Ukip / related : No because of Brexit

TUSC / related : No because of Corrbyn / Momentum

Labour : In my heart yes, but until they sort ort the rights of women and voting for Brexit I am really, really struggling

I am not alone

Remember when a tory supporting newspaper ('Mail i think) said Starmer owned land, ripe for development, worth 10m with planning it never had.... when in fact it was a field he got for his parents to look after rescue donkeys.

The narrative we have on Labour is messed up and people form opinions based on it.

Jasjas the same happens with the Tories. Do you or anyone else know for certain that Boris Johnson made the ‘let the bodies pile high’ remark?
Or is it an attempt to smear him?