What do the Labour party need to do to stop their slow death?

[flashbac]

I'll start:

Starmer needs to stop acting like a rabbit in the headlights and actually stand for something. He has no charisma or gravitas. We want someone with a personality. Stand for something Starmer!

Stop pandering to the 'red wall'. Inspire people to vote for the party with some good policies instead of flip flopping about.

Have some inspiring and uplifting policies like:

• Free childcare for working parents
• making public transport normal and affordable
• subsidised green energy initiatives to help householders lower energy bills eg solar panels etc

And they NEED to distance themselves from that anti science TWAW stance. I'm all for being kind but a blanket dilution of what 'woman' means is regressive.

@Bythemillpond

The pandemic is really highlighting that need to sometimes that you have to just do something quickly rather than with all the due process

Merkel is a leader who has, overall, handled the pandemic far far better than Bojo's knee jerk just do something approach, which has led to corruption and waste on a grand scale
Could hardly say she is the worlds most charismatic leader

Given the state Germany are in I would say Merkel hasn’t been great in this pandemic.

If knee jerk reactions means less deaths, less lockdowns then I really don’t think people are bothered in how we got ventilators and PPE

I agree. It is only politicians and newspapers that seem to be bothered about Boris and Dyson. Most people are saying we may have desperately needed ventilators. We thought we did at the time. So don't give a toss what Boris had to promise to get then. Another example of Labour not reading the room. The funding of flat redecorating etc is more of an issue.

Just wanted to say, this is a really interes Thread with lots of insight. I’ve found it an interesting read. So many impressive women on mums net!

The funding of flat redecorating etc is more of an issue

Has no previous PM redecorated Downing St?
If they did then how much did previous refurbishments cost and who paid for it?

@Onetoomuch
I know what ameliorate means but the parent of the child struggling with maths might not,
I worked as NHS dentist in a deprived area for a long time, the need to alter vocabulary to suit the person is essential it is not just using a couple of varities of words and use plainest English possibly
to rephrase
" I'm sorry about your problem we could try XYZ to try and make it better but unfortunately there is a shortage of money from government for extra help in education " this is easier to understand but not childish or patronising

@Andante57

The funding of flat redecorating etc is more of an issue

Has no previous PM redecorated Downing St?
If they did then how much did previous refurbishments cost and who paid for it?

Not the cost. Who paid and if it was dodgy. Though why they all have to spend so much redecorating I don't know. It isn't like a house life or anything. Only Putin has that.

VaVaGloom
Ah yes Alexander de Pfeffle Johnson, prone to throwing in Latin phrases, dismissed his own journalists £250,000 salary as ‘chicken feed’, he’s a real man of the people. He does like chasing skirt and Farage is known for his intolerance of immigration so perhaps that’s what you think people would like to chat about with them at the pub. They are both popular though so obviously a lot of people like those attributes! Maybe Starmer should have an affair and make some offensive remarks about people from other countries to increase his popularity

The point is regardless of what people have or have not done or said people feel like they can go for a drink with these people and won’t be dismissed or looked down upon. They feel that if they were to ask a question about something they will not be called a bigot.

Like the question about the child not getting help with their maths, they have the ability to take on board and sympathise rather than dismiss.

Politics is about impressions people get.
Why else would Angela Rayner make the comments about the Cayman Islands other than to give a certain impression. She knows people will lap it up and whilst some will then see it isn’t true the hope is that enough will think no smoke without fire.
It is a very precarious thing to pull off and she must have known the danger of being completely discredited if people did a little bit of research.

I think they need to split - the "Blairite wing" and the rest. Ultimately, to win an election they need to persuade people who voted Tory at the last election to vote Labour this time- swing voters decide the result, not party faithful. The "policy gap" needs to be as narrow as possible. By trying to appeal to everyone, Labour are appealing to no-one. They're getting bogged down in fringe issues at the expense of developing and communicating sensible policies with broad appeal. Keir just kind of stands there tying himself up in knots- I thought he'd do better, I must say.

I am really not a fan of Blair but he did find the electoral sweet spot, which is why its slightly confusing that Labour seems to think the solution is to keep moving further to the left.

More generally, it really irritates me when the ruling party does something quite sensible (or which is at least a step in the right direction), and the opposition has to attack it just because they feel they have to, rather than say "yes, we'd agree with that- let's make it happen". It makes both sides look like being in power is more important than serving the public

@TeacupDrama I wouldn't have worded it like that obviously.
For a thread supposed to be aimed at former labour voters there's a lot of reluctance to blame the tories for anything.
Tories didn't cut child benefit, maybe they didn't but they cut plenty of other benefits, certainly didn't increase them boris is allowed to redecorate using whatever funds he likes, boris ordered ventilators from companies with no previous technical experience in manufacturing them but ignored reputable companies that did. God forbid you mention that austerity caused cuts to education. All very one sided my arse this is a thread to prevent the demise of the labour party

The funding of flat redecorating etc is more of an issue

I think I must be the only one who thought the redecorating came as part of the job and is surprised that PM’s have to pay for it.
Otherwise the kitchen would still be a butler sink and a few shelves.
It isn’t like Downing Street belongs to the prime ministers

Not the cost. Who paid and if it was dodgy. Though why they all have to spend so much redecorating I don't know. It isn't like a house life or anything. Only Putin has that

Is it only Putin who has a house for life? No African or Chinese dictators?
I agree that they don’t need to redo the property so lavishly especially as I believe they are allowed to choose works of art for their incumbency but I’d be interested to know who paid for previous incumbents’ refurbishments.
I’m sure if the tax payer had been billed there would’ve been more of an uproar.

Going back to @TeacupDrama's original point, though, in her example the parent whose child was getting help with Maths thinks the reason that's stopped is because there are a lot of children with English as an additional language needing support. If nobody addresses this kind of thing head on, that parent will go on believing that, just like a lot of people think recent immigrants and asylum seekers are getting preferential treatment in the housing queue.

Where Labour went wrong decades ago now, as was blindingly obvious from that Gordon Brown incident in 2010, is just refusing to listen to people's concerns about immigration, social cohesion and so on. That left the door open for Farage and his ilk to manipulate people's concerns and uncertainties. What they should have the courage to say (in my view) is that this country has always had waves of immigration and we've benefited from that enormously; also, racism is totally unacceptable; but large-scale immigration does bring with it new issues ('challenges' would probably be the weasel word of choice for a politician) which need to be faced, discussed, managed, and a lot of that will be tricky. Instead of which, heads in sand.

Let's have a thread "teflon tories, what can other parties learn" now that would be educational
I agree that the far left corbynista types need to find a new party. I actually think that Blair did plenty of positive things that appealed to a lot of floating voters, they need to tap in to that again.

@Bythemillpond

VaVaGloom Ah yes Alexander de Pfeffle Johnson, prone to throwing in Latin phrases, dismissed his own journalists £250,000 salary as ‘chicken feed’, he’s a real man of the people. He does like chasing skirt and Farage is known for his intolerance of immigration so perhaps that’s what you think people would like to chat about with them at the pub. They are both popular though so obviously a lot of people like those attributes! Maybe Starmer should have an affair and make some offensive remarks about people from other countries to increase his popularity

The point is regardless of what people have or have not done or said people feel like they can go for a drink with these people and won’t be dismissed or looked down upon. They feel that if they were to ask a question about something they will not be called a bigot.

Like the question about the child not getting help with their maths, they have the ability to take on board and sympathise rather than dismiss.

Politics is about impressions people get.
Why else would Angela Rayner make the comments about the Cayman Islands other than to give a certain impression. She knows people will lap it up and whilst some will then see it isn’t true the hope is that enough will think no smoke without fire.
It is a very precarious thing to pull off and she must have known the danger of being completely discredited if people did a little bit of research.

Spot on about the Angela Rayner comments. When I saw a reference to her upthread, I googled to find out what she'd done. The Mirror reported what she'd said totally uncritically, and not updated for the Conservative HQ response (may have done now, let's be charitable ). I hold no brief for the Tories, but come on, there's plenty to criticise them for without making totally unfounded allegations about something that was easy to fact check. That's just sloppy.

@Insert1x20p

I think they need to split - the "Blairite wing" and the rest. Ultimately, to win an election they need to persuade people who voted Tory at the last election to vote Labour this time- swing voters decide the result, not party faithful. The "policy gap" needs to be as narrow as possible. By trying to appeal to everyone, Labour are appealing to no-one. They're getting bogged down in fringe issues at the expense of developing and communicating sensible policies with broad appeal. Keir just kind of stands there tying himself up in knots- I thought he'd do better, I must say.

I am really not a fan of Blair but he did find the electoral sweet spot, which is why its slightly confusing that Labour seems to think the solution is to keep moving further to the left.

More generally, it really irritates me when the ruling party does something quite sensible (or which is at least a step in the right direction), and the opposition has to attack it just because they feel they have to, rather than say "yes, we'd agree with that- let's make it happen". It makes both sides look like being in power is more important than serving the public

I agree Blair gained the centre ground, and imo managed to foster the idea of opportunity at the same time as bread and butter stuff like education. Felt positive and central to most.

I don’t think they can split though as you need to get those further left to still vote for you to get numbers.

Any party that takes centre ground does better as those further away from centre generally still will vote for them.

@Bythemillpond

VaVaGloom

The Conservatives didn’t take away child benefit. Dh was on £100k and we still received it. I still received it. It just became taxed.
The only reason it might have stopped was because the person on £100k didn’t want his salary deducted by the tax amount.

That is between you and the higher earner in your family. Not the Conservative government

If you earn 60k (or more) you will pay back all of it in tax, its not an option.

@Bythemillpond

The funding of flat redecorating etc is more of an issue

I think I must be the only one who thought the redecorating came as part of the job and is surprised that PM’s have to pay for it.
Otherwise the kitchen would still be a butler sink and a few shelves.
It isn’t like Downing Street belongs to the prime ministers

The incumbent gets 30k of tax payers money to refit the flat.... i guess it comes down to what the donor expects gets in return for their 200k "donation"

230k for a flat make over... yet Labour are out of touch?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Agree. I live in a poor area that's seen a huge decline in recent years. Because it's a cheap place to live in we had an influx of very visible roma gypsies from the Slovak republic. Numerically there weren't that many but they were housed in an already extremely deprived area which caused considerable resentment and frustration amongst the locals. Tbh they weren't taking jobs off anyone and the flats were in a disgusting condition, uninhabited for years but this episode led to an explosion in anti EU feeling in the area. Sadly the lack of investment in the area, cuts to the police, public services like street cleaning, dustbin collections, potholes in the roads, schools falling apart etc made people even more likely to vote leave and a kick in the face of those who had enabled austerity.

"But the Tories are worse" really isn't the compelling argument you think it is.

@Empressofthemundane

Just wanted to say, this is a really interes Thread with lots of insight. I’ve found it an interesting read. So many impressive women on mums net!

Hear hear!

[quote Onetoomuch]@TeacupDrama I wouldn't have worded it like that obviously.
For a thread supposed to be aimed at former labour voters there's a lot of reluctance to blame the tories for anything.
Tories didn't cut child benefit, maybe they didn't but they cut plenty of other benefits, certainly didn't increase them boris is allowed to redecorate using whatever funds he likes, boris ordered ventilators from companies with no previous technical experience in manufacturing them but ignored reputable companies that did. God forbid you mention that austerity caused cuts to education. All very one sided my arse this is a thread to prevent the demise of the labour party [/quote]
The point has been made clearly I believe. People are pointing out that the blame game doesn't work unless you blame the Tories for stuff people are bothered about. Else it backfires and just gets the public annoyed. As in 'Why the hell would anyone be bothered where the ventilators came etc. We needed ventilators and the man tried to get us ventilators'. Whether you like it or not that is how most people will react. So labour need to go after Tories on stuff people will get pissed off about.

Agree that angela rayner is a liability, luckily she got demoted.
@BronwenFrideswide there's lots of independent research suggesting the opposite. Depends which you read. Their Brexit stance played a much lower part in the defeat than anticipated. Many of those ideas which were popular have since been copied by the conservative party since.
It's irrelevent anyway. The tories are in power, they own it. Brexit has yet to hit, now that will be interesting.....

Is it only Putin who has a house for life? No African or Chinese dictators?

I would have put more examples but would only cock up the spelling of their names and there is a whole other thread about that today😂

@SunsetBeetch agree but the tories surely have to be accountable for their actions.
In the end you go with your own moral convictions, what to you is right and wrong. I see corruption and I don't like it, some won't be bothered. Fair enough.

It all started to get ripped apart when Ed got in instead of David. Ed seems nice enough but David was a leader.

People see corruption etc on one side and awomans rights, racism etc on the other. That is why they are saying they will spoil their papers. That is why people are discussing on this thread who to fix labour. Because they don't want to vote Tory! Of course it would be great if we still had an alternative in Lib Dem 😏