What do the Labour party need to do to stop their slow death?

[flashbac]

I'll start:

Starmer needs to stop acting like a rabbit in the headlights and actually stand for something. He has no charisma or gravitas. We want someone with a personality. Stand for something Starmer!

Stop pandering to the 'red wall'. Inspire people to vote for the party with some good policies instead of flip flopping about.

Have some inspiring and uplifting policies like:

• Free childcare for working parents
• making public transport normal and affordable
• subsidised green energy initiatives to help householders lower energy bills eg solar panels etc

And they NEED to distance themselves from that anti science TWAW stance. I'm all for being kind but a blanket dilution of what 'woman' means is regressive.

@FOJN I have mainstream political views
My argument is that a thread started a week or so before a major by-election/local elections which discusses the demise of the opposition party is suspicious especially at a time when the sitting government is mired in sleaze allegations.
@RedToothBrush agree on the whole with that.
Fwiw much of the post mortem into the appalling result of the 2019 GE suggested that the policies were popular but the leader wasn't.

I wouldn’t vote for Burnham but remember thinking Jarvis could be a good one years ago. He didn’t want to go for it iirc

I don’t mind Starmer in many ways but then can he win, not sure he can based on various factors.

@HappydaysArehere

He needs to do a clear out of momentum. Distance himself and show that he is in power and not the unions. However, he has a quiet, thoughtful and intelligent approach which I appreciate. It reminds me of Attlee who was a modest, quiet man who did not have any of the personality that Winston Churchill enjoyed. Thanks to Attlee and his government we all enjoy the NHS, pensions and then he solved the acute housing problems with inventive ideas such as prefabs etc. Not interested in personality, just results.

Very true, Starmer is a decent man, with strong values...anyone who joins Labour isn't doing it to gain power, they don't normally get it :(

He has to undo the years of damage done by Corbyn and try and unite the party, its also extremely difficult to get your message across during a pandemic and multiple lockdowns plus as everyone keeps saying "we don't read manifesto's or watch PMQ's" so where do we form our opinions from?

However, he does need to offer more conviction, too often i find myself screaming at the radio/tv, saying "FFS state your position!!!"

Unfortunately, i live in a Tory/LibDem area, voting Lab in a GE is a waste of time, all it does is split the opposition vote to the Cons and helps get in people like Murray and Scott Mann, possibly the two most self serving individuals you could ever hope to meet.

@HappydaysArehere

He needs to do a clear out of momentum. Distance himself and show that he is in power and not the unions. However, he has a quiet, thoughtful and intelligent approach which I appreciate. It reminds me of Attlee who was a modest, quiet man who did not have any of the personality that Winston Churchill enjoyed. Thanks to Attlee and his government we all enjoy the NHS, pensions and then he solved the acute housing problems with inventive ideas such as prefabs etc. Not interested in personality, just results.

I like the quiet, thoughtful and intelligent side to him.

However part of being a PM is that you don't always have the luxury of that and you do have to just make snap decisions.

The pandemic is really highlighting that need to sometimes that you have to just do something quickly rather than with all the due process.

I think in time that will tip back to 'normal' where process is absoluetely necessary, but atm Starmer looks hestitant rather than decisive and is only standing up on issues he feels are 'safe' ground. (Presumably after first checking polling on the subject). If you look up polling on how voters view various politicians in terms of whether they are decisive or not, Johnson has generally scored well - though he has had moments during the pandemic where he has slipped on this - these moments have also been where his popularity has been lowest.

I don't want a sparkling personality as leader tbh. I do want a leader I can believe in and has some passion about particular subjects. Its the lack of conviction and the lack of commitment to any idea that I find problematic for Starmer. By all means be considered on most subjects you don't have full knowledge on, but on something you are well versed it would be nice to have this sense of drive and ambition and 'going somewhere towards a goal' that I'm not getting from Starmer. It makes him feel like he is indifferent to everything rather than really caring about something. I want him to feel like managed and more able to act spontaneously because he has that confidence and knowledge to do that too, at some points.

As I say he just feels like Mr Potatohead. Nice enough but doesn't really do much.

@jasjas1973 absolutely agree but we're in a minority. Seemingly you're a 'nerd' if you listen to PMQs
Like Brexit it's all about the feelings. So much invective about Starmer, he's a coward, a wimp or whatever without even knowing the guy yet Farage or Boris would be great to have a drink with...

[quote Onetoomuch]@jasjas1973 absolutely agree but we're in a minority. Seemingly you're a 'nerd' if you listen to PMQs
Like Brexit it's all about the feelings. So much invective about Starmer, he's a coward, a wimp or whatever without even knowing the guy yet Farage or Boris would be great to have a drink with...[/quote]
I listen to PMQ. I freely admit to being a nerd.

Still hate Johnson. Frequently want to punch out Farage's light. Feel frustrated with Starmer as he's just not connecting with me and seems behind the curve not grabbing the agenda and leading it.

Even the stuff about chatty leak and cronism is reacting to the Tories rather than striking out in bold new ways with vision.

Also there is a problem about being in a minority when it comes to a first past the post system.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Yes indeed, Labour need a colourful charismatic leader with bounce liveliness and conviction. Not Starmer🥱

And they need to come from the North. Sorry to all the people in the south, I’m not being rude, but traditional Labour strongholds were always northern.

Dan Jarvis is my local mayor. He was a single parent and served in the army. He’s blunt and says what he thinks. That’s the sort of person they need. Not one of the chattering classes. Or Andy Burnham who stood up to Doris with passion.

Not impressed with Andy Burnham. He did a lot of damage in Manchester with the delay in lockdown that he caused. He is also one for jumping on a bandwagon such as the Northern Rail fiasco a few years ago. He just "plays politics" as an attention seeker rather than actually doing what's best for the people in Manchester.

[quote Onetoomuch]@jasjas1973 absolutely agree but we're in a minority. Seemingly you're a 'nerd' if you listen to PMQs
Like Brexit it's all about the feelings. So much invective about Starmer, he's a coward, a wimp or whatever without even knowing the guy yet Farage or Boris would be great to have a drink with...[/quote]
There are plenty of other posts and reasons given: have you read the whole thread?

if you were dealing with complaints management any course would tell you that a complainant needs to feel heard regardless of the solution or cause of problem
so if a person complains " my son struggles with maths and used to have a TA helping him but now he doesn't as they are helping other kids who have english as second language and my kid is suffering"
if you reply "well their need is greater than your kids and you need to check your white priviledge and stop being a racist" that would in any version of complaint handling class as a really bad way of dealing with it
however even just saying " that must be so frustrating not being able to access help for your kid lots of people struggle with maths" would be more likely to get them onside even if there is still no help as they are not top priority
I know this is a very simplistic example and it is far more nuanced but at present the labour party look like example A and the tories B that is what is so frustrating to many of us that the problem would be better dealt with by labour but they alienate the people they are best placed to help, but the ones that don't always help look like the sympathetic ones that understand

The pandemic is really highlighting that need to sometimes that you have to just do something quickly rather than with all the due process

Merkel is a leader who has, overall, handled the pandemic far far better than Bojo's knee jerk just do something approach, which has led to corruption and waste on a grand scale.
Could hardly say she is the worlds most charismatic leader?

We ve done exceptionally well on vaccines but lets face it, we had too, how many more deaths could we tolerate?

Countries with populist leaders are the ones that have done worse both economically and in deaths.

One criticism i have of Labour is their use of the word "Sleaze", thats normally associated with sex, whats happening in govt now is simple corruption, lets call it that.

Yes I have indeed.
I'm not denying that the labour party has problems, major ones like the little issue about infighting between different factions of the party. The accusation about not listening to its core voters, not so sure about. People liked the policies but not the leader so there's obviously some worthwhile communication between the party and 'the people'. The trans stuff I don't even go there but maybe I should considering people's indignation about their stance.

@TeacupDrama I think what they would say is 'we are sorry about your predicament. We will do xyz to try and ameliorate the situation but we are constrained by cuts to funding from central government.'

Yes, who has cut the funding for the TA ?

One of the first things Cameron did was remove the funding given to areas that were effected most by inward migration, so monies removed for education, health etc etc.

Johnson has been quite brilliant in disassociating him and the tory party from Austerity, cuts in funding are now down to the global financial crash that happened under Labour.

Bit like if you asked folk "who was in power when the UK had a 3 day week?" Labour would be the answer...... it was actually the Cons under Edward Heath.
But time and time again we hear that only Labour fucked up the economy in the 70s......

@FOJN

“ I'm sick of seeing people vilified for having the temerity to hold mainstream political beliefs. In a functioning democracy there is no place for cancel culture; disagree with people on the merits of their argument.”

Yes that’s exactly how I feel too. It’s so ingrained in many who vote left wing that I don’t know if they even realise they’re doing it. It also seems to be socially acceptable to air these views whereas there must be a silent majority who disagree but do not vocalise this...

@jasjas1973

The pandemic is really highlighting that need to sometimes that you have to just do something quickly rather than with all the due process

Merkel is a leader who has, overall, handled the pandemic far far better than Bojo's knee jerk just do something approach, which has led to corruption and waste on a grand scale.
Could hardly say she is the worlds most charismatic leader?

We ve done exceptionally well on vaccines but lets face it, we had too, how many more deaths could we tolerate?

Countries with populist leaders are the ones that have done worse both economically and in deaths.

One criticism i have of Labour is their use of the word "Sleaze", thats normally associated with sex, whats happening in govt now is simple corruption, lets call it that.

I would argue that Merkel has done quite a bit wrong actually. And that the EU certainly have.

Germany fared better early on because they had better existing infrustructure when the pandemic broke out and more basic health care facilities /ICU beds so cases were detected / treated earlier than the UK. Plus Germany is far more decentralised leading to different patterns/rates of spread. Coupled with less under lying poverty.

Where Germany is at now, is very different and arguably isn't as good as the UK.

Its a long game this one. Every country seems to have done certain things wrong/right. Every country had different set up/geographical advantages/disadvantages for when the pandemic broke out.

I think we need a few years post pandemic before we can really judge who has done better than others.

Angela Rayner is a rather spectacular example of modern politicians coming across as unimpressive and out of their depth. Personality shouldn't matter but it's certain that successful politicians just have that ability to connect with the public. The likes of Aneurin Bevan, Ronald Reagan, Barack Obama and, yes I'm going to invoke him, Winston Churchill had that ability to cut through and communicate. I can't imagine anyone voting for Angela Rayner out of anything other than weariness and lack of alternative.

The pandemic is really highlighting that need to sometimes that you have to just do something quickly rather than with all the due process

Merkel is a leader who has, overall, handled the pandemic far far better than Bojo's knee jerk just do something approach, which has led to corruption and waste on a grand scale
Could hardly say she is the worlds most charismatic leader

Given the state Germany are in I would say Merkel hasn’t been great in this pandemic.

If knee jerk reactions means less deaths, less lockdowns then I really don’t think people are bothered in how we got ventilators and PPE

[quote Desmorelda]@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g what connections does she have with Hartlepool ? Guess she's a local ?[/quote]
What's that got to do with anything? We had a longstanding Labour MP who had no previous connection with our constituency. She was very good. Current MP was on our local council first, but isn't originally from our area. I vote for who I think is the best candidate, or if it's an uninspiring field, the least worst candidate. Whether they're local is not a big factor.

As for the suggestion that this thread is being manipulated by Tory HQ, give me strength. Most people on this thread are in the same position as me, as we have spelled out. We used to vote Labour. Many of us at some point or other were party members. We despair of the state the party's in now. That doesn't make us Tories. I've never voted Tory in my life and I can't imagine I ever will.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

As for the suggestion that this thread is being manipulated by Tory HQ, give me strength. Most people on this thread are in the same position as me, as we have spelled out. We used to vote Labour. Many of us at some point or other were party members. We despair of the state the party's in now. That doesn't make us Tories. I've never voted Tory in my life and I can't imagine I ever will.

Same here.

Labour locally don't want to hear about why I'm struggling to want to vote for them. So arrogant.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

As for the suggestion that this thread is being manipulated by Tory HQ, give me strength. Most people on this thread are in the same position as me, as we have spelled out. We used to vote Labour. Many of us at some point or other were party members. We despair of the state the party's in now. That doesn't make us Tories. I've never voted Tory in my life and I can't imagine I ever will.

Its funny because there are a lot of long term names on this thread, who I recognise as actively having been anti-tories and left leaning for a long time.

There's been a growing general disillusionment with the non-tories that I see has developed over a number of years thats quite distinct from pro-tory sentiment.

The fact that so many Labour Party members seem unable to see the distinction is telling in itself.

[quote Onetoomuch]@TeacupDrama I think what they would say is 'we are sorry about your predicament. We will do xyz to try and ameliorate the situation but we are constrained by cuts to funding from central government.'[/quote]
And to the parent your answer is as bad as example A. Which is the posters point. Rather than answering with blame or accusation. Labour need to answer with empathy.

Last GE labour seemed completely oblivious that they ran the NHS and edcuation here anyway so all the it will be better under us stuff was lost on voters who knew who did what - and at school gate did cause some confusion and eye rolling.

VaVaGloom

The Conservatives didn’t take away child benefit. Dh was on £100k and we still received it. I still received it. It just became taxed.
The only reason it might have stopped was because the person on £100k didn’t want his salary deducted by the tax amount.

That is between you and the higher earner in your family. Not the Conservative government

Posters who keep saying that it was all down to Corbyn that Labour lost so spectacularly in 2019, it wasn't:

With Brexit dominating the discussion so far, it is also important not to forget the importance of other policy areas, which was mentioned by 16% of those who abandoned Labour.

In most cases, this was to do with the economic policies proposed in the manifesto and a feeling this time around that they are undeliverable and would cost too much.

This is consistent with polling before the election, which showed that the majority (63%) thought that Labour’s policies are not realistically deliverable, and that the party would not deliver on its promises.