What do the Labour party need to do to stop their slow death?

[flashbac]

I'll start:

Starmer needs to stop acting like a rabbit in the headlights and actually stand for something. He has no charisma or gravitas. We want someone with a personality. Stand for something Starmer!

Stop pandering to the 'red wall'. Inspire people to vote for the party with some good policies instead of flip flopping about.

Have some inspiring and uplifting policies like:

• Free childcare for working parents
• making public transport normal and affordable
• subsidised green energy initiatives to help householders lower energy bills eg solar panels etc

And they NEED to distance themselves from that anti science TWAW stance. I'm all for being kind but a blanket dilution of what 'woman' means is regressive.

Great post, @RedToothBrush.

At my recent zoom CLP to elect new officers, the LGBTQ+ candidate on the Starmer slate ONLY talked about trans women in his (1 minute) pitch - he wanted to end debate about sex-based rights and didn't think people who questioned whether TWAW for AWS etc should be in the party. I'm clinging onto membership by the skin of my teeth but jeez, they don't make it easy.......

[quote Schonerlebnis]@jasjas1973 absolutely agree with you.
The Tory party is in the midst of a scandal, this time about sleaze and cronyism, and yet again a thread about how the Labour Party is failing it’s core voters, funny that
Thing is Starmer can’t win. If he challenges the government (as he does in PMQs every week) he’s branded unpatriotic and exploiting a crisis. If he doesn’t he’s accused of arselicking. No one knows labour policies because we are in the middle of a pandemic and several years from a GE. Unlike his predecessor who was never off the front page for all the wrong reasons, he’s been elbowed out of the media because he was viewed as a threat.
Now the tories are quite happy to let momentum types do the job for them when you look at the vitriol he’s getting on Twitter etc.[/quote]
Nobody who isn't a party member or a political nerd gives a damn about PMQs.

The majority read tabloid newspapers, which determine who are voted for

That's the problem. I have no idea what the solution would be.

Stop pandering to the 'red wall'

Part of Labour's downfall was ignoring these places for so long. They got lost in the centralised policy of the big cities and London-centricism. Now the wind is blowing back.

But what have they got to offer under Starmer?

@RedToothBrush. Great post but not really suggesting in a positive way how the demise can be halted.
Like 2/3 of the thread really. Just thread after thread of 'they're crap' so actually pointless.

The majority read tabloid newspapers, which determine who are voted for

It's a nice meme to use, but it's becoming less and less relevant with the uptake of social media.

It's an easy excuse to use such as 'turkeys voting for christmas', it offers no self reflection and puts the blame on outside factors.

The people who really lack critical thinking are those who still spout these types of comments and sneer at other who vote differently.

@User135644 just out of interest do you live in the red wall ?

[quote Desmorelda]@User135644 just out of interest do you live in the red wall ?[/quote]
No, I live in a big city.

See that's the thing. People claiming things but actually not even living in those places. 'Labour doesn't listen to the working class' 'it's out of touch' well maybe come here and see what life is really like.

[quote Desmorelda]@RedToothBrush. Great post but not really suggesting in a positive way how the demise can be halted.
Like 2/3 of the thread really. Just thread after thread of 'they're crap' so actually pointless.[/quote]
Find a point to the party.

What is it?

Who do they represent? Why? It what way? Are they really connecting with these groups in a meanful way? (as in are they getting these people into the party and into roles where they can have an influence). Is this balanced? Are certain groups over influential/over represented?

What are their concerns? How do they represent these concerns?

How do they encourage engagement and debate with groups which are not currently? Instead of chasing the votes of 'easy targets'?

What is the silent story(s) they are fighting that no one else is? Why are they important? Whats your unique selling point?

How do you intent to actually solve a problem? Not what the ideology is - whats your step by step action plan? What problems can you identify to this? Acknowledge them.

How do representatives and members talk to the general public - they could do with some work on this rather than shouting at random people they don't know for being 'tories' when they disagree? Its not very consistent with the 'be kind' mantra and immediately makes them look like a momunmental bunch of hypocrites. Public relations is now no longer a matter for HQ - it is about all levels of the party.

What is Starmer's big passion? At the moment he just feels like Mr Potato Head and not a lot more than that.

What is the difference between the party membership and the general public? There is one - its not being recognised, instead its being actively suppressed.

None of these questions are being asked. No one wants to ask the difficult questions and critically think within the party because of the amount of infighting there is.

To be positive about the future the party has to start asking these questions and confront them instead of shoving them under the carpet and pretending they don't exist. The public can see it going on.

There has not been a post mortem over the last 5 years. Just more bleating about identity politics and dancing to the agenda lead by the Tories rather than getting out there and trying to forge some new ground by leading from the front. Its no good saying we believe x, y and z in virtue signaling. Its rolling up your sleeves, getting down in the trenches and working your socks off in practical terms with an actual plan.

We've had enough of ideology and belief. We want solutions.

I think the previous working class labour voter in a red wall area also thinks that Boris for all his faults is a man they could have a beer with at a pub and talk to, they just don't feel like that about keir Starmer. As much as I disliked Niger Farage and would never ever ever vote for him, he did have the sort of appeal that he could sit with a group of builders or car mechanics and talk he never made them feel small because they weren't city bankers or because they went to Costa del sol for holidays but made them feel he was on their side and supported their values, whether he did or not is debatable but no one will ever vote for someone who tells them their concerns are not valid and they just need to educate themselves

Starmer hasn't produced a manifesto yet. Until that has happened I'll cut him some slack rather than call him mr Potatohead which is just unnecessarily mean especially when you are criticising others for name calling. Personally I think he has been deliberately sidelined by the media. His appearances on pmqs were initially good and he was seen as a plausible threat unlike Corbyn.
I agree that there are some hideous gobshites especially on twitter who are tarnishing the good work that some labour mps and councillors are doing.

Desmorelda
Starmer hasn't produced a manifesto yet.
The elections are in ten days time.
If people do not know what Labour stand for ten days before elections
they are stuffed

Well indeed. Postal votes have already been issued, in a heavily postal election.

@Desmorelda

Starmer hasn't produced a manifesto yet. Until that has happened I'll cut him some slack rather than call him mr Potatohead which is just unnecessarily mean especially when you are criticising others for name calling. Personally I think he has been deliberately sidelined by the media. His appearances on pmqs were initially good and he was seen as a plausible threat unlike Corbyn. I agree that there are some hideous gobshites especially on twitter who are tarnishing the good work that some labour mps and councillors are doing.

I think he has been derailed more by people within his own party for trying to go after Corbyn. He was doing ok until then. Since he has been watching his back on top of trying to not give the media ammunition.

@ListeningQuietly

Desmorelda Starmer hasn't produced a manifesto yet. The elections are in ten days time. If people do not know what Labour stand for ten days before elections they are stuffed

Mind boggling

@Desmorelda

Starmer hasn't produced a manifesto yet. Until that has happened I'll cut him some slack rather than call him mr Potatohead which is just unnecessarily mean especially when you are criticising others for name calling. Personally I think he has been deliberately sidelined by the media. His appearances on pmqs were initially good and he was seen as a plausible threat unlike Corbyn. I agree that there are some hideous gobshites especially on twitter who are tarnishing the good work that some labour mps and councillors are doing.

It doesn't matter! Politics is about personality, policy and PR in the current era.

A manifesto only is read by a small percentage of the population.

The rest of the population he has to connect with via media - whether that be social or mass and via his personality.

If he's not getting the message across that he's the man and he's passionate about x issue which is important to the public then the manifesto could be the best ever written but he's not going to get elected.

This is a reality that needs to be faced. The Labour Party isn't grasping it.

Honestly, Starmer = a useless, cowardly, dull individual who doesn't stand for anything is the vibe I'm getting. And I WILL read manifestos. Its hard to get past how he's never appeared to show he believes in anything and instead calculates whether its safe to show that opinion first. It feels contrived and disengeous.

1/. You don’t win elections by mud slinging - no one cares. For every example of Tory ‘sleaze’ or bigotry or privilege etc (yawn!!) there is a labour example. People rarely vote against something, they want to vote for something. The success of the SNP is case in point (before they stated going down the wrong mud slinging we hate the English path.) They sold a vision of a successful strong aspirant Scotland and won a landslide because of it.

2/. People want to ‘level up.’ They don’t want more benefits and they certainly don’t want to think that they are taking handouts from the more wealthy. People aspire to be and have more and be better not for others to have less. Time and time again it comes up that people don’t want more benefit or DLA or whatever. They want more help in getting off state help and being self sufficient and successful. And they do not see the wealthy as the enemy who need to be punished which is the current key labour message.
2/. Stop blaming the media. The media are attracted to success. Tony Blair was not successful because he courted Murdoch; he was successful because he sold policies that people wanted to believe in and therefore read about. He sold a vision of leveling up and aspiration which is why he got such positive press
3/. Student union politics - grow the fuck up .... literally just GROW.THE.FUCK.UP

I am a Tory voter. Used to vote Lib dems before they lost their way. I do not want to vote Tory again as they are moving further and further right and they are becoming unchecked due to useless opposition. But I won’t vote against them for the sake of it. I want to vote for something. I’ll happily pay more taxes (if they spend them on leveling up not handouts) I don’t want to be thanked for doing this but I don’t deserve to be demonized or told that everything I’ve achieved is just luck.

It would be nice if they worked out the cost to ordinary families of these grand eco/CO2 saving laws.
Having to install a heat pump instead of a new gas boiler or having to use an EV instead of a 3 or 4 year old car.
I shall be able to manage but had these come along when we were not so well off would have been hell. It will be a worry for many.
Tell us the costs please.

I'm not sure Labour can stop their slow death.

The party was for the working class and composed of the working class. Prescott, ship's steward. Johnson, postman. Workers who became union reps who moved into politics. Not any more. The trajectory seems to be politics degree, activist, MP's assistant, wait to be parachuted into a seat in a constituency you know nothing about. That, IMO, was the start of the slow death. And this slow death will continue for as long as they centre the student politics that such people bring with them.

We need another Kinnock. We've got a Starmer. Death beckons.

I think the previous working class labour voter in a red wall area also thinks that Boris for all his faults is a man they could have a beer with at a pub and talk to, they just don't feel like that about keir Starmer. As much as I disliked Niger Farage and would never ever ever vote for him, he did have the sort of appeal that he could sit with a group of builders or car mechanics and talk he never made them feel small because they weren't city bankers or because they went to Costa del sol for holidays but made them feel he was on their side and supported their values, whether he did or not is debatable but no one will ever vote for someone who tells them their concerns are not valid and they just need to educate themselves

Compared to Emily Thornberry who sneered at the flag and the very people she was supposed to represent or Jeremy Corbyn walking off with the person who had just racially abused one of his own MPs or Gordon Brown calling anyone who questions Labours politics a bigot. Keir Starmer can’t even get a drink in a pub he is so unwelcome.

People want to relate to the people in charge of running the country. They don’t want people who actively dislike them and look down their noses at them.

When people think that they could go for a pint with Boris and Nigel and be treated like equals. When the Labour Party, the party that is supposed to represent the workers of the country treat their core electorate with disdain then you know something has gone dreadfully wrong.

Keir Starmer can’t even get a drink in a pub he is so unwelcome.

For accuracy, the same landlord said that Boris Johnson was also banned.

The people I know who are dyed in the wool Red are utterly blinkered
I know someone who works for a left-wing think-tank and who has voted Labour her entire life. She does not listen, she does not question, she steamrollers through every conversation. In her mind, she is correct about everything and if you disagree she doesn't want to know.

@RedToothBrush made an excellent point about the intellectualisation of debate and how those who lack the right word salad are ignored or vilified. I was talking to a couple of blokes recently about race - white, rural blokes in manual trades. How they phrased their thoughts would have had the think-tank loon in the previous paragraph doing her nut. They were not PC, they were pretty pissed so were speaking their minds, and they'd have been torn to shreds on social media, but had they phrased it as 'We have concerns about social cohesion and how that will impact on society going forward' that would have been okay. Because that was what it boiled down to. But they think Labour thinks they're racists, so I don't imagine for a second that they'll vote for Kier.

This has been such an interesting thread. I feel much less alone.

@ListeningQuietly

Desmorelda Starmer hasn't produced a manifesto yet. The elections are in ten days time. If people do not know what Labour stand for ten days before elections they are stuffed

mmmmm i don't really know what a GE manifesto means to local politics? The big issues around here is our local sewage plant being overwhelmed, due to too many houses being built and speeding on the A390.....

As for a lack of policy 3 or 4 years out from a GE ? i wouldn't expect Lab to be telling the world what it would specifically do, any policies that proved popular would just be hijacked by the Cons.

Labour face an impossible task at the moment, as shown on here, so many people have views that are just wrong, from the pub incident to Labours tax policy to Boris Johnson is the type of man who the working class voter relates too & feels this is the type of guy who they would enjoy a pint with...... anyone would think that women don't have a vote.

So Angela Raynor has just made an absolute prat of herself, huh?