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What do the Labour party need to do to stop their slow death?

632 replies

flashbac · 25/04/2021 10:34

I'll start:

Starmer needs to stop acting like a rabbit in the headlights and actually stand for something. He has no charisma or gravitas. We want someone with a personality. Stand for something Starmer!

Stop pandering to the 'red wall'. Inspire people to vote for the party with some good policies instead of flip flopping about.

Have some inspiring and uplifting policies like:

  • Free childcare for working parents
  • making public transport normal and affordable
  • subsidised green energy initiatives to help householders lower energy bills eg solar panels etc

And they NEED to distance themselves from that anti science TWAW stance. I'm all for being kind but a blanket dilution of what 'woman' means is regressive.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
porridgecake · 26/04/2021 18:02

Of course Tony Blair got his kids into the London Oratory. Private school education at state school prices.
It is a pity all state schools don't get that level of support.

TruelyWonder · 26/04/2021 18:04

Sorry not up on this stuff. Why is Tony Blair to blame for faith schools? I went to a faith school and I am 46.

ListeningQuietly · 26/04/2021 18:15

@TruelyWonder

Sorry not up on this stuff. Why is Tony Blair to blame for faith schools? I went to a faith school and I am 46.
Tony Blair allowed new faith schools within the state sector

Gove then accelerated the trend by encouraging faith groups to set up academies.
This has led to religious segregation in schools, particularly in cities, which has been really bad for community cohesion.

Schools that segregate by parental religious participation should not be funded by the taxpayer.
(Outside a few high pressure areas, CofE VA and VC schools do not, many Catholic Schools are non selective)

but handing state funds to private groups to run schools outside the transparency and accountability rules of LEAs
is WRONG

LEAs are responsible for finding places for kids, but not allowed to build schools in most places

Labour should support good schools for all

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

noblegiraffe · 26/04/2021 18:18

Teachers generally vote Labour. Plans to abolish this that and the other and restructure the entire education system again will be met with a "FFS leave us alone for a bit, we can't cope".

Andante57 · 26/04/2021 18:22

Outside a few high pressure areas, CofE VA and VC schools do not, many Catholic Schools are non selective)

Are Jewish and Muslim schools non selective?

ListeningQuietly · 26/04/2021 18:30

@noblegiraffe

Teachers generally vote Labour. Plans to abolish this that and the other and restructure the entire education system again will be met with a "FFS leave us alone for a bit, we can't cope".
I agree about curricula and the like but ensuring that governing bodies cannot be hijacked has to be good for teachers

especially female ones (see multiple posts up thread)

BronwenFrideswide · 26/04/2021 19:03

Labour's problem is that they won't allow any debates on immigration to happen, full stop. It's like their TWAW "no debate" stance. It's fascist. They're telling voters what they have to think, rather than letting them debate and decide upon the issues themselves.

There does seem to be an authoritarian undercurrent that they will tell voters how to think and no dissent is tolerated. The mantra and no debate rolled out at every opportunity.

thecatfromjapan · 26/04/2021 19:32

I'm getting a real sense that people don't think Labour is 'on their side'.

Would that be right?

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 26/04/2021 19:34

@thecatfromjapan

I'm getting a real sense that people don't think Labour is 'on their side'.

Would that be right?

I think they're detached from my reality.
BronwenFrideswide · 26/04/2021 19:35

I think that's a fair assessment thecat

ListeningQuietly · 26/04/2021 19:39

@thecatfromjapan

I'm getting a real sense that people don't think Labour is 'on their side'.

Would that be right?

Yup. They do not represent me. nobody does at the moment I do not know who they DO represent
BronwenFrideswide · 26/04/2021 19:39

For a lot of people and especially women the feeling is that Labour are not only not on their side but actively against them and they see no prospect of that changing.

Desmorelda · 26/04/2021 19:41

they are telling voters what they have to think, rather than letting them debate and decide
See I don't get this. Who is telling them what to think ? How does that work ? Surely the party has to disseminate what it's policies are .....Voters can debate and decide as they want, they are voters surely or are you talking about party members ?

BlowDryRat · 26/04/2021 19:43

I was a member until I got told that my membership, campaigning hours and vote weren't welcome because I support women's sex-based rights.

They need to actually function as an opposition. They also need to drop the patronising wokeness.

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 26/04/2021 19:46

@Desmorelda

they are telling voters what they have to think, rather than letting them debate and decide See I don't get this. Who is telling them what to think ? How does that work ? Surely the party has to disseminate what it's policies are .....Voters can debate and decide as they want, they are voters surely or are you talking about party members ?
Have you ever heard Lisa Nandy being interviewed about women's concerns? Or Dawn Butler? Angela Rayner?
AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo · 26/04/2021 19:46

@thecatfromjapan

It really is awful, though.

Common-sense tells you that you are not going to get into power by effectively telling women you will make it OK to make prostitution a job like any other. Not when many women are in Universsl Credit and know that they will be the ones having to do sex work.

It's just bonkers.

People grow out of that sort of politics when they gain a little life-experience - and empathy.

And yet that narrative is one that the current Labour Party is saddled with.

The Labour Party really needs to separate itself quite firmly from what are, in fact, fringe idea, with no purchase on people's reality or aspirations.

And Labour need to do it soon, visibly, and firmly.

This
Mrsorganmorgan · 26/04/2021 19:47

I emailed my Senedd Rep, asking his opinion on Women's Safe Spaces. sport, all women short lists and the abuse of /Rosie Duffield. I don't hold out much hope of a reply.

Desmorelda · 26/04/2021 20:00

@JackieLavertysWeirdVoice. No I haven't but I liked labour policies on other things. I live in a poor area that suffered massively from austerity measures imposed by successive governments over the last 10 years. You need to live here to see it. Do I want more of the same crap from this government ? No. So I grit my teeth rather than waste my vote. I guess it's different if your quality of life is decent..

JackieLavertysWeirdVoice · 26/04/2021 20:05

[quote Desmorelda]@JackieLavertysWeirdVoice. No I haven't but I liked labour policies on other things. I live in a poor area that suffered massively from austerity measures imposed by successive governments over the last 10 years. You need to live here to see it. Do I want more of the same crap from this government ? No. So I grit my teeth rather than waste my vote. I guess it's different if your quality of life is decent..[/quote]
I despise the Tories.

I want Labour to represent me, not tell me to think ideological claptrap about women.

I think we're on the same page really.

notagainmummy · 26/04/2021 20:42

Kier Starmer is a barrister though isn't he? As a legally trained person he looks at every single angle at least 2 jumps ahead, so he sees all kinds of problems others don't see. However, it means he is always fence sitting.

Labour need to stop the class divide nonsense. All this penalise the rich and criticising wealth production is not a good look. The unions are like some dark satanists hiding behind the Labour MPs just waiting to emerge and take over. (Shudder)

I'm sorry their heads are just stuck in the 1930s and this policies are not fit policies for the 21st century.

Not saying other parties are either.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2021 20:49

@thecatfromjapan

I'm getting a real sense that people don't think Labour is 'on their side'.

Would that be right?

There's that, theres the not listening, there's the being told actively that they are wrong in a condescending manner by members and actual representatives of the party.

Don't get me wrong here the Liberal Democrats are definitely giving the same vibe.

So in this dynamic you have the Tories who at least appear to be willing to engage on certain subjects which are off limits due to the culture war even if this isn't followed through or is actively in practice completely gone against in actual policy terms.

The barrier is communication above all else. Something that can not be blamed on mass media and journalists when this is the experience many (as highlighted by posts on this thread) are having is with one to one conversations with members of the party(s).

They are made to feel they are not welcome within the party or to even engage on certain policy matters because it doesn't fit in with the members beliefs and their chosen line.

There is no debate / discussion going on with the public. Its top down dictate.

In reality in terms of how this plays out with voters thats what they remember more than anything. However they were treated with contempt. The number of people who get to comparing policy between parties is surprising low. And why are you going to bother to do that when you are told to your face that your concerns are worthless, unimportant or even bigotted?

Its a massive issue in arrogance. Its driven primarily by puritanical thinking. Its fed by echo chambers on social media and certain educational and workplace settings which have for a number of years deliberately worked to intimidate in a variety of ways. I'm not just talking 'woke' politics here. Its about how you articulate an argument - people with a certain standard of education talk 'the right language' whereas if you lack that skill to construct an argument rather than you be treated with an open mind that maybe beneath how you say it, there might be a very valid concern / point thats being otherwise missed. Therefore its dismissed as just a thicko who can't argue rather than someone who has something to say but isnt good at conveying that message in a way that others can grasp and resonants.

It is a growing gulf in intellectualisation but not necessarily intelligence. Its almost systematic and institutionalised prejudice against those who don't say the right things, don't have the right word salad and don't dress/speak etc the right way. It deliberate intimidation of those who dont follow the orthodoxy.

That doesn't endeer anyone to them.

Just yesterday i had a local LD councillors come down the street canvassing. He damn well knows my feelings. He looked embarrassed and unsure whether to talk to me but did out of politeness as i was stood on the drive. Not once did he ask me about how i was considering voting this time. And interestingly they only canvassed my street with the well off houses. I live two doors down from the end of the street. At the end of the street is a council estate. They didn't even bother knocking on doors there. That for me smacked of the same attitude that certain people are not worthy of their time. Ironically they actually have a candidate standing for parish who lives on that street.

The same is happening with Labour. The barking thing is that Labour wont spend time bothering with our street nor the council estate next to us because we are both deemed a lost cause. Too Tory, too poor, too rich or dont vote enough.

We have all got into the habit of not voting FOR something preferring to vote AGAINST something. A lot was made of how Corbyn did a lot better in 2017 than expected. Thats more due to the voting against the tories rather than voting for Corbyn. Thats why come 2019 the Labour vote bombed because it was, by that point, a futile exercise to even consider Brexit and people were jaded by it all and just wanted to move on. So you didnt get the viting against the Tories effect in quite the same way (particularly in more affluent middle class areas which were more centre ground or even Tory but pro-EU).

Starmer for me doesn't stand for anything. He's too busy playing it safe and not wiling to make a point until the Tories are already backed in a corner. The 'Captain Hindsight' label from the Tories is cutting through. Starmer isn't willing to break ranks on anything or take a stand because he's terrified of infighting breaking out within his own party. He sit on the fence and doesn't take the bull by the horns on certain issues because they are 'too controversial' and will cause offence.

Its been fascinating seeing Labour tear itself apart over a leaflet in Warrington which talks about travellers. The national party didn't like the tone and wording because its offensive. The trouble is the subject matter is an issue that has been of concern to local residents for a number of years due to ongoing antisocial behaviour issues over a period of time. It lead to lots of backtracking and rewording of how it shoukd have been written. And lots of accusations about why it wasn't picked up by all the many people who vetted the leaflet. From my experience these things are only seen by two, maybe three people all who are local and it never gets raised to any level in the chain of command. It reflected what sentiment of the public was and this wasn't liked. Yes there are issues of discrimination etc here but no one wants to solve the problem that people living with the issues that have been raised have had to deal with for years and years. They are only interested in using the correct language to show how inclusive they are.

Its about pr not solving real life problems. Its the ultimate legacy of the Blairite years of spin. The Tory party have learnt about what has cut through and traction in turns of what they can get away with and what they can spin.

The failure to see a public backlash when one is occurring, is the difference between Labour & the LDs and Tory party. The Tory party are focusing not on their membership when campaigning but the public (the membership and donors are important AFTER votes are counted not before) whereas its the other way around for Labour and the LDs. They are only interested in their grassroots and not the wider world. And thats the heart of your problem.

Ask people why they should vote for Starmer beyond 'because he is not Johnson / the Tory party'. You will struggle to get an answer from a non party member which gives a reason to vote FOR Starmer in a positive proactive rather than reactionary way.

This was the lesson i learnt studying political communication in 1996. Negative based campaigns tend to do worse. People vote differently if they feel they have something to vote FOR. Tell me how Starmer is doing on this front?

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2021 20:52

Also on a local level what im hearing is stuff about how people are fed up of the corruption and pocket lining of Labour councillers.

So the stuff about the tories doing the same on a national level has bugger all traction. Its just 'well thats all politicians do'. Thats the red wall problem Labour now have. Coupled with the arrogance / condescending thing.

Puttingouthefirewithgasoline · 26/04/2021 20:53

I've not read the thread, but they just lost that defender of the underdog. They re defined who the under dog was, according to fashion, eg foxes, immigrants, trans people, now self identity.

Now everyone should be represented but a governments primary job is to protect its citizens and put them first unfortunately they just have not done that for a very very long time.

The people I know who are dyed in wool Red are utterly blinkered and don't understand what the issues are.. Because they see themselves as underdogs but they come from privalige actually, are well educated property owners but because life has thrown them some curve balls they see themselves as in need.

They are totally blind to the world of true poverty, like the documentary shown on poverty under the last Labour government.
A girl in a tennament flat block had to sleep on a bare sheet less mattress, the same one where her sister had passed away. They had nothing, that's poverty and labour does not represent these people anymore and one huge thing they did was remove the ladders up by removing grammar provision and taking away support in primaries to help their more able students get on educationally.

RedToothBrush · 26/04/2021 20:58

I do not know who they DO represent

Their own self interest.

I very genuinely do not know how i will vote for local elections.

I can think of reasons for all of them not to vote for them. I'm struggling to think of a single reason to vote FOR any of them.

None of the are representing my interests.

I know the majority standing in my area for the locals i know on a personal level too. There aren't just people in rosettes.

LolaSmiles · 26/04/2021 21:08

RedToothBrush
I have a similar situation, but I anticipate our local elections will be a Conservative victory and it will be for many people like turkeys voting for Christmas.

The conservatives are doing a good job of targeting traditional Labour voters on some areas, glossing over the ways that traditional Labour voters will lose out, and knowing they can get away with it because there's no credible opposition on a national level.
Like the last election, people were put off voting for otherwise good MPs who cared about their local area because the Labour front bench didn't get its house in order and stop pussyfooting around Momentum and the Owen Jones crew.

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