why are libraries free and leisure centres charge

[ivykaty44]

when they are all municipal

I can use internet for freak local library, take out 10 books that would cost me £50 on amazon

yet go swimming and there is a charge

I don't mind

but why?

MilduraS my local council doesn't run the rubbish and recycling as it contracts it out to another company - just like your leisure centre is contracted out. So there must be a way of making money from contract services

@ivykaty44

saraclara

they are in my town, with 3 libraries within a 3 mile radius and at least 10 staff at the larger 2 storey library

You are very lucky to have that many libraries in your neighbourhood. In my experience this only still happens in cities such as Cambridge, London, etc., but certainly not in more rural locations, where public services have been stripped to the bone under Tory austerity. Also those 3 libraries might not all be open every day of the week / 9 to 5 every day or two of them might just be small hubs with a limited number of services and books available.

Not seeing a need for paper books is a remarkably privileged point of view. Libraries to the average person on a low income are absolutely vital, that £50 you happily sink on Kindle books you read on your iPad is out of the realms of possibility for an awful lot of people.

What that statement really means is ‘poor people don’t have a need for paper books’ which is not only wrong, it’s also massively ignorant.

@ColinSupporter

“I don’t think libraries are an essential service (we could install some computer terminals in other buildings if necessary)

Do you not know what a library is?“

Yes. But the only convincing argument I hear for why they are needed is so people can access the internet, computers etc to access state provided services, job hunt etc. I don’t see the point of them for the provision of actual paper books - I don’t see a need for actual paper books at all really except maybe for little children.

I don’t see the point of them for the provision of actual paper books - I don’t see a need for actual paper books at all really except maybe for little children.

Good grief.

I can only imagine that either you place no great store on reading or you live in some kind of high-tech bubble where you only ever read something that's available on a kindle.

While I now have the privilege of not needing to worry about money too much there were certainly times when I was younger that I definitely didn't have the money to spare to pay for books. During those times, my local library was a real lifeline to me, I was able to get access to a wide range of books without it costing me anything.

From your statement, it seems that you want reading to be confined to only those members of society that can afford to pay for a kindle and the ebooks to go on it?

By the way, ebooks are often more expensive than actual books.

Just one example, is the re-release of Terry Pratchett's first novel from 50 years ago.

On Amazon, the paperback price is £3.49 but the kindle version is £4.99

Or the first novel by Richard Osman, "The Thursday Murder Club" which is currently the bestselling book in the UK according to the Sunday Times Bestsellers List (although only number three according to WHSmith)

The hardback price on Amazon is £7.49 but the kindle price is £9.99

Seriously? An ebook is more expensive than the hardback version?

Seriously? An ebook is more expensive than the hardback version?

To be fair,those do seem to be a bit of an anomaly. The vast majority of the books I get are significantly cheaper in Kindle version, and nearly free now I signed up to Unlimited because it was still too expensive due to how many books I get.

" Seriously? An ebook is more expensive than the hardback version?"

Since when? All the ebooks I see are cheaper.
I also find buying books, especially second hand, to be cheaper than the library because I always end up with library fines.

[quote ivykaty44]@BraveBraveMouse I don’t name change & my history is easy to find 🤣😂 Tory think tank you say, perhaps do a little homework before throwing obscene aqusations[/quote]
I answered, accurately, your question first. Why do you think that being called a Tory is "an obscene aqusation."

I suspect you are in more need than most of libraries if you can't spell accusation.

@Gwenhwyfar

" Seriously? An ebook is more expensive than the hardback version?"

Since when? All the ebooks I see are cheaper.
I also find buying books, especially second hand, to be cheaper than the library because I always end up with library fines.

You don't have to pay fines if you return the books or renew them. Second hand books are not an option for people with no disposable income.

I am saddened by some of the responses on here, poor people read and have a thirst for knowledge too.

Wish they were free

@44KirstenBlest

Gwenhwyfar

" Seriously? An ebook is more expensive than the hardback version?"

Since when? All the ebooks I see are cheaper.
I also find buying books, especially second hand, to be cheaper than the library because I always end up with library fines.

You don't have to pay fines if you return the books or renew them.
Second hand books are not an option for people with no disposable income.

I am saddened by some of the responses on here, poor people read and have a thirst for knowledge too.

Excellent response

Also leisure centres are nice to have but libraries are an essential service.

What an odd think to say / think

I agree with you OP - I see this as one of those real anomalies in life.
We have spent so many hours upon hours in libraries over the years - when I was a child, then a teen, and when my dc were children and then teens) and I've thought over and over again how wonderfully priviliged we are to have such a fantastic service for free, and I can't believe it has been free.
Where I live, the Council did used to let all dc swim for free too, until about 2010 when the country had to bail out some bankers and the Council started having millions cut from it's budget year upon year. I think it was a great policy, and I realise it wasn't national.
To be fair, the council do have tennis courts and basketball courts and gym trails in the parks you can use, and our City is blessed with hundreds of parks you can use for free.

There are lots of anomalies though - I oftern wonder why I expect to, and am happy enough to pay for a check up or treatment at either the dentist or the optician, but I expect my GP surgery to see me for free. Why ? Who makes these rules ?

I have 2 kids under 5, we go to the library at least once a week and almost always borrow between 10 - 20 children's books. There are no late fees on a children's library card. In pre corona times we also did story time and free language classes there each week. We've had holiday activity packs and World book day tokens from there. Our old library gave out free food waste bags. They have signs up giving parents advice on things like when to apply for school places. We are not very badly off but we don't have much disposible income either and so for me the library is so so valuable.

Our local leisure center is OK. The swimming pool is too cold for the kids and the changing rooms have become mixed sex so I don't use it much and wouldn't even if they were free. Better for me to just jog in the park. But I appreciate that your perspective might be different if you couldn't run for whatever reason.

There are many homes that don’t have books in them as parents can’t afford them, a library is an essential service for families like them.

They can be a hub for people to meet who otherwise wouldn’t see anyone for days.

Parenting classes, which are linked to reading, are run from libraries

A lot of my later teenage years were spent working at the library and the leisure centre (lifeguard/ swimming teacher.) I got paid more for lifeguarding and even more for teaching, so in staff costs alone, the leisure centre costs more, at least for casual staff.

Libraries run other services besides just the books on the shelf to borrow and computer terminals. When I worked there, there was the whole reference library at County HQ, including local collections. Also access to old newspapers. (The wonders of microfiche!) Am Dram groups could borrow whole play sets, and there was a music library elsewhere (sheet music.) There were deliveries to housebound readers with a lot of books on tape/CD and large print books. There were also prison libraries, with changes of books. Mobile libraries don't seem to exist any more. Inter library loans still exist, though, and some people used those a lot for research, rather than trekking half way round the country to the relevant academic library. Some of those services cost, but the charges were pretty minimal compared with their true costs, I think. Plus there are all the community groups and so on that many libraries encourage these days.

There are free outdoor leisure facilities, they are just mostly maintained by parish councils not borough/county.

Here the leisure centres are owned at borough level and run by private companies, libraries by the county. The county is in deep financial trouble, as are pretty much all county councils after the government withdrew funding. We are talking year on year cuts of tens of millions for the last 5 years or so and thats without the impact of Covid on their ability to generate income. (The Conservative run council obviously don't blame central government for the cuts and in one budget meeting put the blame squarely with the elderly, the disabled and the sick who are being so unreasonable as to live longer and need more care.) Libraries have had two rounds of major cuts in ten years plus large scale redundancies, reorganisation etc. Local authority run libraries are moving more to a community centre type model to try and generate income from room rental, and those that can't change are being closed. The leisure centres are protected at the moment as they are being run by private companies under contract. Leisure facilities also get a regular financial bump as part of legal agreements when new houses go up. Libraries don't. So leisure is just long term more financially viable. So its not really libraries vs leisure, libraries are pretty much gone anyway. There will remain a token service while its a statutory requirement, but thats it.

Its happy happy times here! There might be some parts of the country that still have such a thing as a local library though.

Libraries aren’t free. We pay council tax and part of it goes to libraries, the same with police, recycling centers, refuse collection. Residents don’t pay for all these services directly because they pay council tax.

@geraldmeers

I'm not saying leisure centres aren't important - obviously health and fitness are good things for all sorts of reasons. But to say books aren't important is ridiculous.

For kids having access to books makes a difference to their educational attainment, reading ability and future prospects. I'm not poor, but I couldn't have afforded to provide the amount of books my dcs got through without the library. In normal times I go to the library every couple of weeks and get 3 or 4 books. I know people who go every week and get through a book most days. You'd need to be quite wealthy and have a lot of shelving to buy all of those, and why would you want to buy books you're only going to read once? I see people of all ages there, who probably wouldn't bother if books could only be bought. People also go there to read newspapers and magazines, for a quiet place to study or read, even just to keep out of the cold or rain. It's also a friendly place for people who want a chat, want help with accessing information. Our library runs lots of activities in non-Covid times - story times for kids, talks, book clubs, board game club, knitting club, school visits. A friend once called it a social hub for introverts. (Though I think extroverts are very welcome too). It's hard to imagine why anyone would think they're a non-essential service or something we should pay to access.

This is so true. Especially the bit about the difference it makes to children if they access to books and reading. It’s one of the (many) reasons I love Dolly Parton and her Imagination Library

imaginationlibrary.com/uk/

Most of the libraries in London were established by philanthropists over a century ago and given over to the local councils to run. Libraries are seen as educational and of incredible value to poorer communities and students who can't study at home. Recreation centres are more recent establishments. They are usually heavily subsidised.

But the only convincing argument I hear for why they are needed is so people can access the internet, computers etc to access state provided services, job hunt etc. I don’t see the point of them for the provision of actual paper books - I don’t see a need for actual paper books at all really except maybe for little children.

Wow - don't people in the UK read paper books any more? I'm not in the UK but we have a decent size library, soon to move to a much bigger building, and our nearest city has a huge central library - all filled with, shock - BOOKS. Just because you aren't interested in reading an actual book don't imagine everyone else is the same.

Everyone needs to be able to access a library, there are lots of other forms of exercise people can do other than going to a leisure centre.

@VeniVidiWeeWee I said it was an obscene aqusation to be be accused of being a Tory think tank. So to answer your question I was being accused of not being a regular member of mn but coming here and scouting for ideas from other people, whilst pretending to be someone else.

That’s different from being called a Tory, take some of your own advise

I think the thing to consider is how libraries are all being closed and hours cut etc. They are stopping to run a service like they use to and I suspect it comes down to funding cuts.

Therefore because leisure centres are far more expensive to run they need to charge to keep running. They do get some council grants and this helps to keep costs low and in ours provide some services free to certain users

Most of our local libraries are now shut down because our council went bankrupt. Our closest now has very limited opening as it's staffed entirely by volunteers

You can do a youtube fitness exercise at home so not necessary to go to fitness centre. You can't write enough books yourself to keep you going over a lifetime so it's free.
Also historical

Our library is also staffed by volunteers. Our leisure centre is staffed by surly people who almost all seem to detest their job and everyone who goes there. I suppose people need paid jobs, so it's good they get paid to work at the leisure centre. As people have said, they need to have trained lifeguards for safety there and they are run by companies who the council contract it out to I think. So they expect to make a profit. I imagine there is more to maintain there. I suppose everyone ends up paying for the library through taxation, but not everyone uses them. Not everyone uses the leisure centres, but only the users end up paying for them, which is strange. Or, maybe it's just that leisure centres really do operate on a price per use basis, where the more users they have, the more it costs to run it, while libraries have more fixed overheads which don't change much per use?

I get why you're asking though and didn't think it was a Tory think tank question at all.

I don't use our leisure centre for exercise btw. I'd far rather go for a run or bike ride or do a yoga class from home or in a studio, (occasionally, as it's £££). The swimming pool is gross. I take dcs, because they don't care that it's not a luxury pool etc and just want to splash about. But for myself, no, I'd never use a gym or swimming pool and I do a lot of exercise.