why are libraries free and leisure centres charge

[ivykaty44]

when they are all municipal

I can use internet for freak local library, take out 10 books that would cost me £50 on amazon

yet go swimming and there is a charge

I don't mind

but why?

I should imagine that gyms and pools have higher insurance premiums than libraries, on top of all the other costs.

@user1636853246842157

Value judgements. Priorities. Public health goals. Human behaviour. Political choices.

This really.

If we, as a democratic society, decided that all citizens should have the right to access a leisure centre which is free at the point of use (so paid for by tax), there would need to be a campaign, enough people would have to get behind it and a political party would have to put it on their manifesto and have it put into law if enough voted for them. I would then be a statutory requirement for councils to provide the service (which would mean more Local Government funding or a big rise in council tax)

This must have been what happened with libraries. They were deemed important, people campaigned and it was enacted into law.

That hasn't happened for leisure centres because no political party is going to prioritise it on a cost basis and because there seems to be no big campaign for it. Weight of public opinion is all that would make this happen.

It's about political priorities.

I'm not saying leisure centres aren't important - obviously health and fitness are good things for all sorts of reasons. But to say books aren't important is ridiculous.

For kids having access to books makes a difference to their educational attainment, reading ability and future prospects. I'm not poor, but I couldn't have afforded to provide the amount of books my dcs got through without the library. In normal times I go to the library every couple of weeks and get 3 or 4 books. I know people who go every week and get through a book most days. You'd need to be quite wealthy and have a lot of shelving to buy all of those, and why would you want to buy books you're only going to read once? I see people of all ages there, who probably wouldn't bother if books could only be bought. People also go there to read newspapers and magazines, for a quiet place to study or read, even just to keep out of the cold or rain. It's also a friendly place for people who want a chat, want help with accessing information. Our library runs lots of activities in non-Covid times - story times for kids, talks, book clubs, board game club, knitting club, school visits. A friend once called it a social hub for introverts. (Though I think extroverts are very welcome too). It's hard to imagine why anyone would think they're a non-essential service or something we should pay to access.

I don't expect them to be free but do think they should be reasonable prices, especially for swimming, which is one of the only indoor fitness activities whole families can do together.

One of our local leisure centres has hiked the price for adult lane swimming up from £5.50 to £7.50(!!!!!) since last week, for the same exact session and length.

It's just not on and means that many people won't go at all.

@ivykaty44

I still feel football pitches, tennis courts, swimming, exercise rooms are important to peoples health as books are to people, so would put equal emphasis on both - but have had my answer from the post above, so obviously it is just an opinion

I agree that both are important and maybe that's part of why so many of us in the UK are overweight...because exercise is seen as an optional, fun activity. Getting 30 mins+ of exercise daily isn't emphasised in the same way as reading, writing etc as an essential part of life.

I agree that both are important and maybe that's part of why so many of us in the UK are overweight...because exercise is seen as an optional, fun activity. Getting 30 mins+ of exercise daily isn't emphasised in the same way as reading, writing etc as an essential part of life.

It actually is. It is so much in fact it was one of the few reasons you could leave the house for during lockdown. There are loads of initiatives , promotion and awareness in schools too. There are outdoor (free to use) gyms installed around parks and leisure areas. There are skate parks, basic football pitches or tennis courts etc.

You can exercise for free.

@BraveBraveMouse I don’t name change & my history is easy to find 🤣😂 Tory think tank you say, perhaps do a little homework before throwing obscene aqusations

@saraclara how do we pay extra through the council tax?
I pay council tax, but I don’t pay e tea, I’m confused?

Have a look at the size of your leisure centre, and the land it's on, compared to the library. Compare the equipment. Compare the number of staff. Compare the likely utility bills of each.

It should be fairly evident why one is more expensive to run than the other.

It’s libraries that are larger and have more staff overall, so what is your point?

[quote ivykaty44]@saraclara how do we pay extra through the council tax?
I pay council tax, but I don’t pay e tea, I’m confused?[/quote]
I don't understand your question.

The gist of my post is that if you don't want to pay for leisure centre activities at point of use, then you'd need to pay for it through your council tax. The council doesn't have an infinite amount of money, and it can't afford to build, equip and run leisure centres without the cash to do so. Cash that is raised via council tax.

To do so, it would have to increase council tax for everyone, whether they use the leisure centre or not. It's not an increase that people would tolerate. So instead the council puts a certain amount towards them as a subsidy, and then users pay for the facilities or classes that they use.

I work for a tennis club (private not council) to give you some ideas of overheads -
3 courts resurfaced last year - £60k
1 light bulb for a flood light - £120 for the bulb, £150 to fit it (we have 46 of these bulbs)
Electricity costs for winter when using floods - 1 month = roughly what I pay for a year of electricity at home
Huge amounts of insurance to cover staff & public
Constant ongoing maintenance (court cleaning £1500 twice a year)
There is loads more - believe me, you don’t want it added to your council tax!

@ivykaty44

Have a look at the size of your leisure centre, and the land it's on, compared to the library. Compare the equipment. Compare the number of staff. Compare the likely utility bills of each.

It should be fairly evident why one is more expensive to run than the other.

It’s libraries that are larger and have more staff overall, so what is your point?

They absolutely are not.

The library in my town is absolutely tiny compared to the leisure centre! I've never seen more than two librarians on duty, whereas there must be about 40 or 50 staff at the leisure centre.

My local leisure centres are run by an independent company on behalf of the council. I don't think any business would be willing to take on a library as they couldn't make any money to cover costs unless they charged basically the same cost to buy a book. The demand isn't really there even though it's essential to the people who do use it.

Because decades ago the government decided it didn't want to pay for leisure centres so it invented the Public Private Enterprise.

So whilst libraries remain free, because nobody has figured how to make a profit from them, leisure centres charge so the business can make a profit.

That's it. No other reason.

@IbrahimaRedTwo

Well for one thing, it costs much much more to run a leisure centre than a library. Also leisure centres are nice to have but libraries are an essential service.

That's a matter of opinion isn't it. Plenty of libraries have closed down. You can read in other ways, just like you can exercise without going to the leisure centre, but both are important.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Because decades ago the government decided it didn't want to pay for leisure centres so it invented the Public Private Enterprise.

So whilst libraries remain free, because nobody has figured how to make a profit from them, leisure centres charge so the business can make a profit.

That's it. No other reason.

I think leisure centres charged even when they were fully council run though.

@VeniVidiWeeWee

Because it's a statutory requirement: Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964

Thank you for this. I genuinely had no idea that there was such a law.

Today I Learnt:-

7(1) It shall be the duty of every library authority to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service for all persons desiring to make use thereof

8(1) Except as provided by this section, no charge shall be made by a library authority (otherwise than to another library authority) for library facilities made available by the authority.

There used to be a time when books were generally too expensive for working class people to afford and most libraries were held by private individuals and organisations and not open to the public. As a consequence, it was seen as beneficial to public education to open free libraries acessible to all. This was initally achieved through charitable intiatives but later it was considered the responsibility of local authorities to provide these libraries, and this responsibility was enshrined in law.

Nowadays it is debatable whether public libraries are still necessary for public education, but because local authorities are legally obliged to provide them and because people don't like to lose a free public service even if they rarely use it, public libraries go on existing (although increasingly many of them are changing into multi-puprose community 'hubs').

On the other hand there has never been the same historical demand for free leisure centres (perhaps because leisure wasn't seen as being as much of a necessity as education and because many working class people would have had access to local playing fields for informal leisure activities anyway). So leisure centres are something that people have always paid for and don't expect to get for free, even though it's not clear that they are any less essential than libraries.

@Bibidy

I don't expect them to be free but do think they should be reasonable prices, especially for swimming, which is one of the only indoor fitness activities whole families can do together.

One of our local leisure centres has hiked the price for adult lane swimming up from £5.50 to £7.50(!!!!!) since last week, for the same exact session and length.

It's just not on and means that many people won't go at all.

It's interesting to see the differences in different parts of the country.

I live in north Cambridgeshire and here we have a number of different council run pools and even an outdoor swimming pool.

For adult lane swimming most of the indoor pools are £4.60 per hour but the outdoor pool is £4.70 per hour (actually they're all for 1.25 hours).

I haven't been brave enough to go to the outdoor pool since it reopened this year (too cold so far) but it's great during the summer.

Although there is also one brand new council leisure centre that has always been more expensive and that has been £7.50 for a number of years.

By the way - these are all guest prices. You get a discount if you are a member.

OK - so talking about this has tempted me to go back to the outdoor pool. I've just booked for this Sunday morning coming at 7.30am.

OMG, what have I let myself in for - the weather forecast is saying that it's only going to be 5 degrees on Sunday morning - at least once you get into the water it's warm enough.

@ColinSupporter

“I don’t think libraries are an essential service (we could install some computer terminals in other buildings if necessary)

Do you not know what a library is?“

Yes. But the only convincing argument I hear for why they are needed is so people can access the internet, computers etc to access state provided services, job hunt etc. I don’t see the point of them for the provision of actual paper books - I don’t see a need for actual paper books at all really except maybe for little children.

Dear god

One of our local leisure centres has hiked the price for adult lane swimming up from £5.50 to £7.50(!!!!!) since last week, for the same exact session and length

Increase in price is because they can’t have as many people in the pool at one time. I think lots of people would be very surprised at the huge costs of running these places, they can’t do it at a loss

@BraveBraveMouse

Are you part of a Conservative think tank sounding out library privatisation on Mumsnet? Weird question.

I am wondering the same. It's certainly easy to see where right-wing politicians get their cost-cutting ideas from.

[quote ivykaty44]@ceilingsand were talking about free at source, libraries are also paid for through council tax[/quote]
And long may it continue,. Access to free Reading books is very important

You don't see a need for BOOKS?

Scary, isn’t it?

saraclara

they are in my town, with 3 libraries within a 3 mile radius and at least 10 staff at the larger 2 storey library