How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

Indeed. Well it will all come out in due course to reassure the rightly outraged public that "lessons will be learned". If there wasn't the sketchy back story and this was the same situation with a mother who had no multi agency involvement, there would be no prevarication nor implied failure by those agencies. If this was indeed a completely out of the blue occurrence.

It's horrific no matter which way you look at it.

It will just keep on happening. Nobody ever got the sack over it!Maria Kepple starved to death in 1970s in Yorkshire and line manager was relocated to Barnet! Same with all similar incompetents. Jail them for manslaughter that will get their arses in gear!

It will just keep on happening. Nobody ever got the sack over it

The head of children's services got sacked over Baby P - funny that - there are 1-2 deaths a week of small children but no one else at that level has been sacked - but Mr Ed everyone's friend Balls sacked the woman live in Parliament without even informing her first.
And the result - draconian rules where small children and babies are taken from their mothers for weeks/ months for an explained broken arm - such a good idea to bay for blood, such good results.

@Sundances

It's a hideous situation, and I say that as someone who spent the three years of my sons life living with the SS in the wake of the Beverley Allit / MSBP fallout because of the disputed origins of metaphyseal fractures - good reference point for that is the subsequent Webster case.

Always there is the onus on parents to put everything aside in the best interests of the child, when LA actions sometimes appear to be completely contrary to that.

So I have worked and worked on my personal biases because I absolutely want children to be protected. If Authorities say they are going to do that, then appear to have a hand in an abject failure to do so, it has to be examined.

But I know better than to try and have that debate on Mumsnet, because it is such an emotive issue and one which most posters will have little direct experience of it. And I really don't want to de-rail this thread.

It's a very complex and emotive issue from all sides.

If Authorities say they are going to do that, then appear to have a hand in an abject failure to do so, it has to be examined.
If someone in authority admitted they can't save babies due to inadequate funding
They'd be sacked as incompetent.
Authorities have to toe the line.

"They bring a child without being able to provide for the child, they depend on someone else to provide for a roof, for food, for clothings. How is that responsible parenting?"

You might as well put single parents, who are not able to work and rely on benefits, in that category

SPAC church is it one that beat children to drive the devil out of them which is why Victoria Climbie was killed. They knock one devil out and six in!

It reads as though she intended to come back (beggar’s belief wtaf was going through her mind) and believed the child would still be alive.

As deplorable as this is I think it’s manslaughter as she didn’t intend the baby to die. Murder by definition is intention to cause loss of life. The poor thing died of neglect not abandonment. This infuriates me that some women/men would kill for children yet others treat their kids with such disregard.

Did she suffer mental health issues? For her to be gone so long sounds as though she had a psychotic break or something. How the hell did the unit not realise she was gone?!

I do think it is true that, had this been an older, middle class white woman (involving a series of weddings or a business trip), then the press, and various MN posters, would be bending over backwards to find some kind of mental health causation, some kind of male coercion - anything to explain the scenario other than she was simply a 'monster'.

While I agree with you that white middle-class criminals tend to get an easy ride on MN, I don't think those scenarios are really comparable. I haven't read about the aforementioned mother who killed her SN child, but unless she went partying, tried to sell concert tickets, and entered a modelling contest afterwards, it's not the same thing. I'd say it's more comparable to Casey Anthony, who is widely hated.

It sounds like the child in this case was like a doll that she tired of and had no real meaning to her beyond dressing up and taking cute photos.
When she tired of her then she decided to live her life. When the “doll”died then she could see she had loads of things she could do and saw it as freedom not murder or manslaughter

I almost think there is going to be a bit of disbelief that she will spend any time in prison. I think she fully expects to get a telling off from the judge and then she will resume her life as before.

This story broke my heart. That poor baby. I have a 21 month old DD and I can't leave her alone for 2 seconds for fear of her climbing on something and falling off, hitting her head or eating something that she shouldn't.

It is absolutely abhorrent to me why that woman, or anyone would purposely left a child so young.

Sleep tight little girl 💕

@thedancingbear

^The way it has been reported is due to her being black. She obviously had issues that we don't fully know about- away from her family since the age of 14, in a unit, who knows how she got impregnated. But the white lady who actually deliberately killed her SN child (which I made a thread about, as I felt she was massively failed by services and the deadbeat dad) had a completely different reporting in the media. I accept there are differences in the mums' situations, but one gets reporting about services that failed and led to the child's demise and the other gets her partying reported, barely a mention of what her situation was. That is because she is black in my opinion.^

I do think it is true that, had this been an older, middle class white woman (involving a series of weddings or a business trip), then the press, and various MN posters, would be bending over backwards to find some kind of mental health causation, some kind of male coercion - anything to explain the scenario other than she was simply a 'monster'.

But when it's an 18-year old black woman, certain posters say that her actions must simply be the result of 'pure evil', and no other analysis is necessary or possible.

Mumsnet remains really instructive, as always.

Nope. Any parent who did this, male, female, young, old, black, white or turquoise I'd have exactly the same view on it.

@IrmaFayLear

I know someone who fosters babies. The mothers are incompetent (proper use of word) most often due to learning disabilities.

The young woman seemed quite competent: she boarded a train to London, she dressed very well, she was buying/selling concert tickets on the day the child died and entering beauty contests afterwards.

This strikes me as someone who has a moral vacuum. Whether this is an excuse or a mental health condition providing one i don’t know.

Yeah, a "moral vacuum" is a mental health condition: it's called being a sociopath.

@givemesun

"They bring a child without being able to provide for the child, they depend on someone else to provide for a roof, for food, for clothings. How is that responsible parenting?"

You might as well put single parents, who are not able to work and rely on benefits, in that category

Lots of single parents work and provide for their children. We are not "unable to work" just because we are single parents. Someone is either so disabled they can't work, or not. Having children doesn't stop someone working. Obviouslz some disabilities prevent people working but being a parent is not a disability.

I am disabled and a single parent and I work full time and this comment is frankly insulting on botj counts.

Nope. Any parent who did this, male, female, young, old, black, white or turquoise I'd have exactly the same view on it.

I'm pleased to hear this but I do not expect this is universal.

Yeah, a "moral vacuum" is a mental health condition: it's called being a sociopath.

If this is what has happened here - and we're just speculating, of course - then even sociopathy is treatable (with difficulty).

Wouldn't it be better if we could identify people with these kinds of traits, and take steps to try to stop this kind of thing happening, then simply wait until after the event, declare them 'evil', and lock them up?

@thedancingbear

^The way it has been reported is due to her being black. She obviously had issues that we don't fully know about- away from her family since the age of 14, in a unit, who knows how she got impregnated. But the white lady who actually deliberately killed her SN child (which I made a thread about, as I felt she was massively failed by services and the deadbeat dad) had a completely different reporting in the media. I accept there are differences in the mums' situations, but one gets reporting about services that failed and led to the child's demise and the other gets her partying reported, barely a mention of what her situation was. That is because she is black in my opinion.^

I do think it is true that, had this been an older, middle class white woman (involving a series of weddings or a business trip), then the press, and various MN posters, would be bending over backwards to find some kind of mental health causation, some kind of male coercion - anything to explain the scenario other than she was simply a 'monster'.

But when it's an 18-year old black woman, certain posters say that her actions must simply be the result of 'pure evil', and no other analysis is necessary or possible.

Mumsnet remains really instructive, as always.

Do you realise that the baby is also a black girl?

And you're accusing people of racial bias when I myself think she's awful and so do most other black/non white people as far as I know. People don't like child killers and not everything is racially motivated.

even sociopathy is treatable (with difficulty). Wouldn't it be better if we could identify people with these kinds of traits, and take steps to try to stop this kind of thing happening, then simply wait until after the event, declare them 'evil', and lock them up?

How would you do this? How would you identify sociopaths before they commit crimes, and what steps would you take to stop them from doing so? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand how it would work.

@ZoeCM

even sociopathy is treatable (with difficulty). Wouldn't it be better if we could identify people with these kinds of traits, and take steps to try to stop this kind of thing happening, then simply wait until after the event, declare them 'evil', and lock them up?

How would you do this? How would you identify sociopaths before they commit crimes, and what steps would you take to stop them from doing so? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand how it would work.

Exactly. Would there be mandatory screening for personality disorders when you register with the community midwife, or what?

So reports are now saying she left the baby alone on 11 previous occasions.
Heads should roll, including hers.

@LizBennet

So reports are now saying she left the baby alone on 11 previous occasions. Heads should roll, including hers.

I'm really pleased that we live in a country that does not execute 18-year-old women.

North Korea's that way >>>>>>>>>>>>

[quote LizBennet]

Apologies to those who read my comment and translated it to “chop the mother’s head off like we’re in 18th century France”.
Congratulations to those who applied some critical thinking skills 👍