How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

However, the particular one I will highlight is that it was, it appears, known on social media that the child had been left at home. She wouldn’t be the first to assume someone would step in(especially if they had done so before).

She would'n be the first to assume someone will step in? Is it a done thing? To fuck off to party for days and to assume someone will come to take care fo your child and clean up your mess?

Bloody hell.

My parents used to do it semi-regularly. They’d ask GP’s to babysit then if they were busy, or just said no, they’d go anyway. Knowing that GP’s or my Great-Gran wouldn’t see us left home alone and step in at some point.

I’ve also known a couple of cases of similar happening through working with kids.

@MagentaZebras

It’s only too much of a stretch if you’ve never known anyone who would do that.

This is the normalising of severe abuse that many of us on this thread are finding repulsive. I don't care how many people you've met that would do that. They are all disgusting people and should never be anywhere near children. There being a lot of them does NOT make it ok.

Point out to me where I said it was ok behaviour?

There is a difference between someone closing a door on a chilling deliberately choosing to leave them to die and someone who walked out in other circumstances.

That’s all I’ve said. It’s not as simple as assuming she’s pure evil and made a deliberate choice to kill her child. To stop it happening again the actual full picture needs to be known rather than assuming she’s evil, jail her forever, case closed.

The excuses are getting ridiculous now. It's not her fault because a stranger or acquaintance should have known her baby was dying and tried to find where she lives, and rescue her?

The gymnastics...

Maybe she had arranged for someone else to look after the baby and it went horribly wrong.

In the photos, the baby looks really well looked after. It seems like half a story.

Poor little thing though - heartbreaking.

@SweatyPie

The excuses are getting ridiculous now. It's not her fault because a stranger or acquaintance should have known her baby was dying and tried to find where she lives, and rescue her?

The gymnastics...

Again. Seeking to understand the whole situation is not making excuses.

"Six days? For six days, she just assumed that some random person would go to her house and feed her baby? And it never occurred to her to ask someone to do this? I'm sorry, this is too much of a stretch."

It's only too much of a stretch if you've never known anyone that would do that.

Thank God that most people don't know anybody like that and find it inconceivable, let's not try to normalise it eh?

Ah I get it now @MagentaZebras only your opinion formed by your childhood abuse counts.

Clearly my experiences don’t at all and are fair game for you twist and misquote.

Gotcha now 👍🏻

Ok, so are you saying that there ade any circumstances ever - with some training courses or whatever - that you believe it could even conceivably be a possiblity to be appropriate to leave a child, any child, in this woman's care ever again?

Where have I said that?

Programmes that work with perpetrators of all sorts are about their recovery and understanding of their behaviour. Ian Brady was never released, but still had appropriate psychiatric care. In this situation I’d be amazed if she were allowed to care for a child again and no, I don’t think it would be right or appropriate.

I would say, however, parents can have children removed to adoption (so clear evidence of abuse and neglect) and ultimately manage to successfully parent subsequent children.

People can and do change, the challenge is to assess how much change and what that means from a public protection point of view, it’s highly skilled and nuanced work, to do that you need to know what went wrong and how, and what capacity for change there is. There will be people working with her to assess that but as a Schedule 1 offender (terminology might be different in England) she wouldn’t be in charge of children again.

@SweatyPie

Again. Seeking to understand the whole situation is not making excuses.

*

This isn't even seeking to understand, it's just making things up. Nobody leaves their toddler alone and expects someone to look after it for a week without telling them. It doesn't happen

So my telling that I’ve had direct experience of that is what? A lie?

It does happen. Thankfully very rarely, but it does.

Anyway, I’m out. My experience of child abuse obviously isn’t acceptable to some on here so there’s no point even discussing it

my parents used to do it semi-regularly

I am so sorry to hear this. I do not think though - and I mean this kindly - that using our abusive childhoods as a yardstick for what is acceptable parental behaviour is a good idea.

Point out to me where I said it was ok behaviour?

There is a difference between someone closing a door on a chilling deliberately choosing to leave them to die and someone who walked out in other circumstances.

That’s all I’ve said. It’s not as simple as assuming she’s pure evil and made a deliberate choice to kill her child. To stop it happening again the actual full picture needs to be known rather than assuming she’s evil, jail her forever, case closed.

Nobody has accused you of saying it's ok behaviour as far as I've seen (I may be wrong and have missed something - was doing my children's bedtime - if so apologies). I think the point from most posters has been that there are no other circumstances. There are simply facts: she left a toddler alone for 6 days, knowing she'd be dead. In that time did not go home or call for help or alert anyone. The outcome was therefore exactly what she created. Yes, she chose to leave her girl to die. I can't see how you can possibly believe anything else. Even if she had some dream of a small chance of someone random rescuing her daughter before she died - that still makes her a monster to play that game with a child's life. I am accused on here of having no empathy. Where was her empathy for her own child, dying in pain and terrified and alone?

@JustLyra

Ah I get it now *@MagentaZebras* only your opinion formed by your childhood abuse counts.

Clearly my experiences don’t at all and are fair game for you twist and misquote.

Gotcha now 👍🏻

Right ok. Not what way said at all but clearly you're off to bed so want to throw some part shot in an attempt to make me look like the unreasonable one, when anybody who reads the thread will see that my posts have been nuanced and not aggressive or personal or rude like many.

If she really assumed someone would realise her baby was home alone, find out where she lives, break into her home and feed her - why didn't she at least check that that had happened and the baby was still alive?

I am so sorry to hear this. I do not think though - and I mean this kindly - that using our abusive childhoods as a yardstick for what is acceptable parental behaviour is a good idea.

You are being incredibly offensive, and patronising now.

At no point did I say her parenting was acceptable or ok. I simply said there is a difference between someone who actively chooses to kill their child through evilness and someone whose child dies through circumstances that are appalling, but we don’t yet fully understand.

There are simply facts: she left a toddler alone for 6 days, knowing she'd be dead. In that time did not go home or call for help or alert anyone.

We don’t know that. People can assume that, and when it all shakes down they may be right, but we don’t know. And we won’t know the full story until the reports, review and summing up are done.

My parents used to do it semi-regularly. They’d ask GP’s to babysit then if they were busy, or just said no, they’d go anyway. Knowing that GP’s or my Great-Gran wouldn’t see us left home alone and step in at some point.

This is completely different.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

My parents used to do it semi-regularly. They’d ask GP’s to babysit then if they were busy, or just said no, they’d go anyway. Knowing that GP’s or my Great-Gran wouldn’t see us left home alone and step in at some point.

This is completely different.

Sorry, I didn’t realise you knew her and knew the people commenting to her on social media about her child being at home and that she should go to her ...

@Jellycatspyjamas

Ok, so are you saying that there ade any circumstances ever - with some training courses or whatever - that you believe it could even conceivably be a possiblity to be appropriate to leave a child, any child, in this woman's care ever again?

Where have I said that?

Programmes that work with perpetrators of all sorts are about their recovery and understanding of their behaviour. Ian Brady was never released, but still had appropriate psychiatric care. In this situation I’d be amazed if she were allowed to care for a child again and no, I don’t think it would be right or appropriate.

I would say, however, parents can have children removed to adoption (so clear evidence of abuse and neglect) and ultimately manage to successfully parent subsequent children.

People can and do change, the challenge is to assess how much change and what that means from a public protection point of view, it’s highly skilled and nuanced work, to do that you need to know what went wrong and how, and what capacity for change there is. There will be people working with her to assess that but as a Schedule 1 offender (terminology might be different in England) she wouldn’t be in charge of children again.

Fucking hell. If you would consider it to EVER be appropriate to have someone who'd done this near a child, ever again, then there is something very, very wrong with the whole culture of the system and no wonder we see so many tragic outcomes still and more lives destroyed every year.

so sad,obviously the mother had mental health issues, obviously

@JustLyra

And no, I’m not going to bed, I’m just choosing not to engage with you any longer.

In hindsight I should have done so when you played abuse top trumps with your friend’s case earlier.

Abuse top trumps??

That is a new low.

No I don't know her, and I never said I did.

Grand parents looking after grandchildren is not like someone going on a bender on the off chance a random person would look after their child.

Why are you trying to normalise a behaviour that is utterly unreasonable?

Fucking hell. If you would consider it to EVER be appropriate to have someone who'd done this near a child, ever again, then there is something very, very wrong with the whole culture of the system and no wonder we see so many tragic outcomes still and more lives destroyed every year.

Are you on a mission to misread me?

Twice in that quote I say I didn’t think she should or would have children in her care - her offence status alone will guarantee that.

@JustLyra

I am so sorry to hear this. I do not think though - and I mean this kindly - that using our abusive childhoods as a yardstick for what is acceptable parental behaviour is a good idea.

You are being incredibly offensive, and patronising now.

At no point did I say her parenting was acceptable or ok. I simply said there is a difference between someone who actively chooses to kill their child through evilness and someone whose child dies through circumstances that are appalling, but we don’t yet fully understand.

There are simply facts: she left a toddler alone for 6 days, knowing she'd be dead. In that time did not go home or call for help or alert anyone.

We don’t know that. People can assume that, and when it all shakes down they may be right, but we don’t know. And we won’t know the full story until the reports, review and summing up are done.

These are not "circumstances that are appalling". This was a direct result of the decisions that the mother made, knowing - as everybody sane does - that a small child left alone for nearly a week with no water of food would die.

We DO know that this is what has happens, that is why this charge was brought against her and she pleaded guilty to it.

@Jellycatspyjamas

Fucking hell. If you would consider it to EVER be appropriate to have someone who'd done this near a child, ever again, then there is something very, very wrong with the whole culture of the system and no wonder we see so many tragic outcomes still and more lives destroyed every year.

Are you on a mission to misread me?

Twice in that quote I say I didn’t think she should or would have children in her care - her offence status alone will guarantee that.

You said "not in charge of children ever again". To be clear, so we're mot speaking at cross purposes, you think it might be appropriate at some point in the future for someone who left their baby to die of dehydration and starvation to be in the community and have contact with children in the future, as long as they were not their care directly?

If she were to fall pregnant again the child would be removed into care, she would have the legal right to contact with that child unless/until it was placed for adoption. That contact would be supervised. At least where I am that would be the process. Her offence would stop her being able to work with children in any capacity.

I don’t know the details in English law but the principles are the same.