How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

@Branleuse

it isnt murder because she was stupid and negligent rather than malicious. Murder is when you purposely kill someone.

Also whats the point of supported housing if there is no support. Whats the point of a child being under a child protection plan if theres no social worker checking up. How could noone notice a baby alone for a week?

This

I was pregnant when the baby P case made it in to the main stream media and I avoided any information like the plague but people seemed to have a need to tell me all the details, maybe to just share the horror and it broke me a bit for ages. One of the worst thoughts was how forgiving and hopeful little children are, always waiting and hoping for things to be different and so loving that they’ll wake up everyday looking to love and be loved by their parent only to face neglect or violence.

I’m not outraged from reading about this today as this was all over my Twitter timeline a few months ago, and my anger has since subsided.

I think it’s clear that this young mother had a rocky start to life - a baby at a young age, a history of being a runaway since 14, being estranged from her family etc. I think it’s presumable that there was mental health issues at play, so I’m going to reserve my scathing comments. I think the police/cps are on the same tangent as I - they have accepted a guilty plea of manslaughter as opposed to placing her on trial for murder

My heart breaks thinking about that poor baby’s last days a very cruel death

Social workers are easy to blame. They're easy to blame when children are removed before someone like this is given chance to parent alone. Then, there's talk of baby snatching, adoption "targets", all that rubbish. They're easy to blame when they're underfunded, and firefighting.

What people need to face up to is that this is what people voted for. No surestart, underfunding social services, outsourcing mother and baby accommodation with the bare bones of support, police protecting statues, rather than looking for ?trafficked and exploited young women. She left home at 14, a child. What we as a society vote for, pay for, that's what influences these cases. A child killed a child. This is hugely sad.

@ismiseeire

We can't get involved with every young vulnerable parent on the off chance they won't be able to cope. I think we should. Even just weekly engagement with a Family Support Worker or something.

That's not a role for social workers. The legal framework doesn't exist for it for a start

Oh gosh @Fembot123 that's made me cry. How true. I remember reading about the awful death of Alfie Lamb who cried out for his 'mummy" even though she wasnt doing anything to prevent his death.

How unjust life is. How truly wretched for some.

At some point she must have had a public health nurse visit. Where was she housed prior to the YMCA facility? If a mother is underage, I believe that there SHOULD be a legal framework whereby they automatically have social workers assigned.

That's what the health visiting role used to be. Literally a visiting role. But it's been cut back and cut back. It's what people voted for.

@Fembot123

I was pregnant when the baby P case made it in to the main stream media and I avoided any information like the plague but people seemed to have a need to tell me all the details, maybe to just share the horror and it broke me a bit for ages. One of the worst thoughts was how forgiving and hopeful little children are, always waiting and hoping for things to be different and so loving that they’ll wake up everyday looking to love and be loved by their parent only to face neglect or violence.

Yes. That's one of the most heartbreaking things. How even an abusive parent will be adored and idolised, until the child is an adult. It took me until my 20s to realise that not all families treat their children this way. And another decade to realise that the problem was them, not me.

@thedancingbear what?! People like me?!
What’s that supposed to mean?
My original comment was removed because I didn’t wish a child killer a long and happy life!

@MrsBerthaRochester

There were also photos and comments on social media of her partying during this period. There was nothing on them to suggest she was coerced or forcibly stopped from returning to her daughter.

Hmm. As a 23 year old, her tweets used to pop up on my timeline as we had a few mutuals. I think her posts were generally faux-happy - something felt a bit “off” about her. It’s hard to explain, when you grow up with social media, you just spot when something seems phoney/weird.

Plenty of people pretend they’re happy on social media when they’re going through difficult things in reality btw, that’s not a good indication.

Murder requires intent. That's why.

There is something fundamentally wrong with that woman.

I am just amazed that noone heard that baby cry. Anyone who has been to the Hanover area in brighton knows how residential it is - rows and rows of terraced houses filled with families. Heartbreaking noone heard her cries, or they did and assumed she had her mum with her.

The posters who're saying why didn't she call the Police - do you know how sexually active teenage girls are often treated by the Police? Do you know anything about grooming gangs and how failed girls who did ask for help were? This week there was a story of a pretty white young woman who was fined by Police for multiple reports of her stalker (who eventually murdered her). I can well imagine why a vulnerable black teenager who may or may not have been involved in criminal activities wouldn't trust the Police.

Don't get me wrong. This story is utterly tragic and heartbreaking.

But I would be really surprised if there wasn't a lot of context. "Monsters" are rare. The tragedy is a bigger one. And as others have highlighted the horrendous lack of services for anyone vulnerable plays a part. And that's political.

@colouringindoors coincidentally that story you mention was just down the road from this one...

So sorry @MagentaZebras, life is so unfair sometimes.

@OhToBeASeahorse

Oh gosh *@Fembot123* that's made me cry. How true. I remember reading about the awful death of Alfie Lamb who cried out for his 'mummy" even though she wasnt doing anything to prevent his death.

How unjust life is. How truly wretched for some.

Was he that little boy who the stepdad crushed with the car seat?

At some point she must have had a public health nurse visit. Where was she housed prior to the YMCA facility? If a mother is underage, I believe that there SHOULD be a legal framework whereby they automatically have social workers assigned.

There aren’t enough resources to protect children where there’s a known risk, much less for purely preventative work and I can’t see that changing any time soon. Most people would be shocked to know how high the threshold is for intervention in child protection on a compulsory basis, and how long children can be left in appalling circumstances where there is known risk.

Preventative social work went by the way many, many years ago - it costs money you see, and the good people of Britain don’t want lots of money spent on “feckless parents”. You just need to look at the outrage of spending £3 a day feeding kids school meals to see that, they certainly don’t want to spend the significant amounts of money it takes to support vulnerable parents and their children.

Yes

@ismiseeire

At some point she must have had a public health nurse visit. Where was she housed prior to the YMCA facility? If a mother is underage, I believe that there SHOULD be a legal framework whereby they automatically have social workers assigned.

Social workers operate under the children act. That can't be changed because you think it should be

@ZoeCM

I just think the minimisation of “difficult childhood” and labelling as a child killer with the assumption that it was an active and deliberate choice to kill her child does everyone involved a disservice

But how is it inaccurate to label her a child killer? She was literally convicted of manslaughter of a child

I didn’t say it was inaccurate, I said labelling her as a child killer with the assumption it was an active and deliberate choice to kill her child...

Reading people’s whole sentences, rather that selectively quoting, before jumping on them helps.

Most people would be shocked to know how high the threshold is for intervention in child protection on a compulsory basis, and how long children can be left in appalling circumstances where there is known risk.

This is so accurate.

Also, the interventions that there are can be pot luck and patchy. Even people who plead for help can struggle to get it.

The system has failed massively here and discussing how, where and why is not, as some people are determinedly making out, remotely the same as saying it’s ok to murder babies.

The system has failed massively here and discussing how, where and why is not, as some people are determinedly making out, remotely the same as saying it’s ok to murder babies.

Trying to understanding a possible bigger picture is not the same as excusing. She's been charged with manslaughter. But if we as a society are ever going to reduce such tragedies, we need to Understand how it happened. Maybe she was just totally selfish and irresponsible. Or maybe not.

@colouringindoors

The system has failed massively here and discussing how, where and why is not, as some people are determinedly making out, remotely the same as saying it’s ok to murder babies.

Trying to understanding a possible bigger picture is not the same as excusing. She's been charged with manslaughter. But if we as a society are ever going to reduce such tragedies, we need to Understand how it happened. Maybe she was just totally selfish and irresponsible. Or maybe not.

Exactly.

Explaining and understanding are very different to excusing.

I didn’t say it was inaccurate, I said labelling her as a child killer with the assumption it was an active and deliberate choice to kill her child...

Reading people’s whole sentences, rather that selectively quoting, before jumping on them helps.

But of course she made a deliberate and active choice to kill her child! Unless she had severe learning disabilities (which would have been brought up by her defence lawyer) she would understand that if you leave a baby alone for days without food, it will die. She was partying for days, surrounded by people - even in the unlikely event that she was being kept at the parties by force, I very much doubt she couldn't tell someone "there's a baby alone at [her address], she needs someone to feed her, please get help."