What could he possibly need them for

[skyisthelimit1]

Few weeks ago I asked my DH of 12 years to leave. He's been abusive and controlling and I couldn't take it anymore.

Last week he came to the house to see the kids and before he left he asked for the kids passport he said he needs to take copies of them incase I lose the passports and I end up need the passport number. I said to him I won't and if I do I'll just report them lost. anyways after arguing with him I decided to let him take copies.

Now I'm worried, what can he do with the copies? He also has copy of my passport in his phone.

@skyisthelimit1

I'm not worried about him him taking them from school/nursery. Since he never collected/ dropped off DS from nursery he would need a password and he doesn't know the password. For the older ones I plan to talk to the school about releasing them to anyone other me.

@TheSpottedZebra legally married too.

You're far, far too relaxed about this.

If he takes your kids and flies abroad with them, you'll probably never see them again.

Do NOT let your children out of your sight.

I would speak to 101 and explain, definitely get onto passport office and speak to the schools.

It scares me the fact they are Irish passports never mind the middle east connection.

I know someone who split from her ex 10 years ago and happily coparented all that time. Last summer he had a downturn of work so took the kids to Ireland for the summer so his parents could help with childcare and he could get more work. The mum had recently started a new job so was relieved as it was a big help to her over summer holidays as her parent who provided childcare had suddenly died and homeschooling over covid had been hard. In that 6 weeks the ex husband and MIL and SIL and New partner poisoned the children against their own mother, constantly saying how she was an alcoholic and abusive and everytime she disciplined the children she was abusing them. Like the ultimate Disney dad.

She went over to collect them desperate to see them and they refused to come home and he referred her to social services. It took months to sort out between the 2 countries social work depts and that whole time the children where in the care of exs family badmouthing the mum. Social services here cleared the mum instantly but the children were then refusing to come home as it had been so long and they settled at their new school.

I could not believe it as you automatically ignorantly assume that they tend to side with the mother.

OP, please listen to everyone here. I have been in your shoes unfortunately (or similar). The school/nursery cannot legally get involved and cannot prevent their father from collecting them if he has parental responsibility. And if he has used the copies of the passports to apply for more passports for then from any of the 3 countries you have mentioned then once he has them all he has to do is get on a plane with them and you run a serious risk of never seeing them again.

Many Middle Eastern countries are not signed up to The Hague convention. That means that if he takes them off somewhere and enrols them in school, the children are no longer within the reach of the UK courts to help, even if they have been born here etc. And you’ll have to argue the case in the local courts in Iran (or wherever it is) and as you know many of the laws in the Middle East are not at all favourable to women, even setting aside the fact that even in more liberal countries, the courts will still have to consider that now the children are living in Iran (or wherever) and settled at school and living with family there, even if dad shouldn’t have done what he did, is it really in their best interests to uproot them again all over again just because mum wants it. Totally wrong but it happens unfortunately.

So please call a solicitor urgently today now, tell them you need emergency advice due to worries about a possible impending child abduction. They can help you apply for a prohibited steps order urgently, potentially as soon as tomorrow morning if you call them now and explain what’s happened. If you have a prohibited steps order it means if he does take the kids from school etc then the police can get involved immediately and they can put out a border alert to not let them out of the UK. From experience unfortunately I can tell you that if he took them now without that in place and you called police, they would argue that this is a civil matter and they aren’t getting involved in squabbles between divorcing parents, and that the children are with a parent and it’s not for them to police which parent they should be with or where they should be with him.

Most important is getting hold of a solicitor today. Once that’s done you should also call the UK passport office and get them to put a caveat on their files to say you are concerned about this and not to believe him if he says passports are missing and they need to alert you if he does try and apply for a replacement etc. I would also call up the passport office in Ireland and wherever your home country is and check if they would be eligible to apply for a passport from those countries and if so you should warn them of your worries and see what they can do/apply yourself for passports for those countries/take urgent legal advice about how to shut down those potential pathways.

And keep the existing passports somewhere very safe.

Looks like @Enuffisenough has had experience in this matter & has made some sensible suggestions, particularly about contacting the Passport office promptly about compromised passports.

I also sadly agree about keeping the kids home from school and nursery until you’ve sorted this out, it should only take a day or two as any solicitor will see how potentially serious this issue is. And call 999 if he comes threatening you at the doorstep trying to get them. Please listen if you don’t want to lose your kids forever. I’m sorry to sound scary but honestly I’m so worried for you and your kids.

‘ I'm not worried about him him taking them from school/nursery.’

Please do not be so naive.

Omg you need to behave as if he will definitely be taking your children to the middle East.
Put everything in place that has been recommended on this thread.
Inform school ONLY YOU are authorised to pick them up. No matter what the emergency.

Put the passports somewhere else physically.

Definitely cancel all your passports and get new ones. Do not delay.

If it all comes to naught, no harm done. If Mumsnet is correct then you get to keep your children.

get a caveat put on the passports - they cannot get new passports without ringing you to check. I did this and it worked because when I applied for a new passport for my daughter and one for my son who had a different sirname, it was flagged and they called me to make sure it was me actually applying

You cannot be naive and think he is not going to do anything sinister!

I read your OP and half way through I thought thank God this has nothing to do with the middle east.... Then I read your update.

He has not taken the copies of passports for anything other than abduction of your children. Just look up the Sally Faulkner case

I actually also had a prohibitive steps order to steop him taking her anywhere without my written agreement, including school, and not out of the country. He was from middle east too.

Its better to be overcautious and put things in place, than to hope for the best. We have no arrangement between many middle east countries, and once over there he will automatically have custody because he is the father. It will be virtually impossible for you to get them back, or maybe even see them if the worst happens

This is terrifying and what’s especially terrifying is how calm you seem. You can’t just assume he won’t take them from school. Especially the older ones.

The school & nursery can’t stop him taking the children if he’s on their birth certificate without a specific court order.
Get urgent ,evaluate advice OP.

@Iceskatingfan.
Wise words from bitter experience

Did you let him leave with the passports or did he take copies at the house?

Sounds to me like he's going to take the kids to the ME.

Hi OP. I hope you’re doing okay and you’re getting lots of good advice here but as a teacher I can confirm what others have said regarding collecting the children. I’ve unfortunately had a similar situation and couldn’t believe it when the Dad turned up at my door at the end of the day. We also have a password system and I tried to stall whilst sending the TA discreetly out for back up. He could see right through my breezy attempt at stalling him and I was terrified something was going to happen but ultimately, legally, I could not withhold his child from him.

and yes, likely looking to get copies of birth certificates (easy to get) and then use the passports and BC to get passports for his native country.

Then they dont need to even report those passports missing as he will already have all the info.

If these kids are boys, this is even more likely. I was lucky that mine was a girl. My ex went on to do something very similar to the son he had later.

And middle eastern families tend to be HUGE - your kids could easily be taken right off into the sticks by some uncle/second cousin, etc and you would not have a clue where they were

As suggested. be over cautious. Talk to the schools, including the nursery and state they are not to be collected by anyone other than you. Not even their father and tell them why. Suggest if anyone turns up to collect them the school must ring you and get it confirmed by way of a password or something. This way again, they won't release until you've said the correct password.

And tell them you are in the process of sorting it officially, but in the meantime you are concerned he may attempt to collect them during the school day. I think every school will take this request very seriously.

He may need a password for nursery, but if he turned up saying some emergency has happened to you and he needs to collect HIS dc they may well release your dc to him unless they have been forewarned.

If indeed you think he will never attempt this anyway, there's no harm done anyway is there.

I have a feeling he needed the passport numbers in order to apply for a ME passport/visa for them.

@skyisthelimit1
Me and him both have Irish passports but we are originally from the Middle East and my kids have dual nationality (Irish and British). If you're from ME, I'd assume he can apply for dual nationality passports there.
I would also be concerned if not part of the Hague Convention. Fleeing to a ME country is sadly quite commonplace. And given the father has the rights over the children not the mother and the rights over the wife of no Islamic shariah divorce, I would be getting my ducks in a row.

In the first place I would put a red flag on the passports saying that the children shouldn't be removed via passport control and the border agency. I would also be applying for a live with order from court for fear of child abduction.

As awful as it is, until this was in place, I'd only offer supervised contsct. With someone you trust or a contsct centre.

Who said I'm calm? I'm not calm at all. I feel sick with worry I've been in tears since I started this thread.

I had a boy in my class who's Mum was in your situation.

We couldn't refuse to let his father had them without a court order as he had PR.

How we worked around it was that he left school 20 minutes earlier than the other children, delivered directly to Mum via the office.

That way, if Dad turned up on the playground at the usual time, he would already have left by a different exit.

Teach your eldest your Mobile phone number.
Show them how to call the police.
Tell them to NEVER leave school unless you have told them in person that they can go with that person.
By actually gently showing your child how to protect and ask for help, you should be able to get them to alert someone if ever they need to.

@Chanandlerbong01

I work at a nursery and we aren’t allowed to just not give the child to the dad because mum said so! We need something official / an actual reason not release the child to a parent!

I work at a school and we consider abduction an actual reason. If they live with Mum then we would only release to her if that is what is requested.

That policy is going to massively fail a child when a parent points out that legally you don’t have the right to do that.

When both parents have PR and neither have a court order then there is no legal right for anyone to prevent one of the parents taking the children.

Not even the police can bring children back from one parent without a court order, even if they normally live with the other parent.

@skyisthelimit1

Who said I'm calm? I'm not calm at all. I feel sick with worry I've been in tears since I started this thread.

Call women’s aid. They have lots of experience in guiding people through these situations and they are experienced in the ways abusive men can act.