Can white people ever experience racism?

[LittleRedCourgettes]

Following a discussion on this topic with some students, I was reading this article and am interested to hear your honest thoughts on this question.....

https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/wherediddwegetttheideaathatonlyywhitepeopleecanbeeracist

Why do people take "I don't see colour" literally? I've never gotten this. Do people really think someone's saying they don't literally see the difference in skin colours? Are there actually people who can't literally see the difference in skin colours, besides people who may be colour-blind or visually-impaired?

@FlyingFaster

I've just opened the thread and am going to read it with interest. My first reaction is that while subsets of white people (Irish, traveller, "white" Muslim, Easter European etc) can experience discrimination, it's not the same as racism- because if they keep quiet and dress the same as others, nobody will know their heritage. A BAME person can not hide their skin colour. Off to read the thread and see if my views change...

How long are we supposed to keep quiet for?

Do people really think someone's saying they don't literally see the difference in skin colours

I've always taken it to mean colour doesn't matter. It would be obviously impossible not to actually see it.

@Hettya

Do people really think someone's saying they don't literally see the difference in skin colours

I've always taken it to mean colour doesn't matter. It would be obviously impossible not to actually see it.

Exactly. So why do some people take issue with this when it's obviously what is meant? That's why I'm asking if they really think the person is claiming not to notice actual skin colour.

Just baffles me how it seems to cause a stir or full on outrage when someone says "I don't see colour", as if they've said the worst thing in the world.

@AgeLikeWine,

"Yes. I have been called ‘gweilo’ to my face in Hong Kong".

"Gweilo" basically means "English man" in Chinese. There is nothing racism about that.

A fellow teacher in our (Scottish) school referred to all English people who had moved to the area as white settlers. As if the phrase wasn't bad enough she always dropped the t to se'llers sorry I'm a bit of a pedant

This is the world we live in Afromeg. The world of the perpetually offended. Words are twisted to mean something they're not. It's present in absolutely everything now. And people are shamed and forced to apologise for it and promise to educate themselves to do better. Or be cancelled for wrong think. Horrible isn't it.

Yes, of course they can. This seems such an idiotic question to me.
Does "go back to where you came from" count, while part of a minority group in a country?
Or having to listen to a cd about "kill whitey" as the only white passenger in a minibus?

@DuchenneParent

I think many of the examples that have been given as racism towards white people are more to do with sexism (male predators seeing white women as easy targets), class ('I'm white and I grew up with nothing') or xenophobia. Though I know that the line between racism and xenophobia is a bit hard to draw.

I certainly have heard white people who are racist themselves perform mental gymnastics to describe really cringey things as being 'racist' against white people, so I would be quite reluctant to label something as such myself.

What bizarre reasoning. No wonder the poor young victims of all the Rotherham and similar scandals got left to their fate without help. I can just imagine those idiot police and SW tying themselves in knots following lines of “thought” similar to your own.

It doesn’t help protect the rest of us from more obvious racism, when you do that. It just fosters further division and bad feeling.

10-20 years before that young British Asian girls similarly were left to their fate because more idiot police and SWs decided that violence towards girls and women in Asian families was a “community” issue called “honour” violence. So those girls got no help, either.

So many smaller scale incidents to. Always overthought determination to be “woke” or “PC” or “right on” leaves people to suffer, just as much as fascist extremism, or structural prejudice does.

One day we will learn to deal in facts and rationality.

Also in the small very White town where I grew up people were extremely racist towards anyone of a different race & that included other White people...
for example a half Italian girl who had olive skin got told to scrub her skin clean by male colleagues in the local supermarket... a half Jewish girl was picked on or ignored completely at Guides...

But obviously it was worse if you were one of the very tiny minority of Mixed Race or Black or Asian kids. Or if you were suspected of being Mixed Race.
My friend who was Pakistani & another girl who was Nigerian were never asked out by boys. Ever.
My friend was poor & had just one outfit to wear to sixth form, she left her clothes in the changing room for gym class & her outfit was stolen. Only her clothes, no one else's.

Strangely though those 2 girls never got overt racist abuse, it was always the Mixed Race kids who were bullied.

It worries me because one of my cousins lives in the next town & in September her Mixed White & Jamaican daughter will be going to that school.
She's already unhappy that she stands out because her gingery Afro hair that takes 2 hours to straighten is so different to her all White classmates... yes, her natural hair is beautiful but its hard for her to see that without any Black role models.

So going back the subject.., White people can be just as awful to other White people of other White races if they can tell they're of that different race; as they can be to BAME people.
And to be fair I've seen racism from some Pakistani people towards Jewish & Black people; and racism from paler skinned Filipinos towards those with darker skins...
I guess racism is a general human failing.

We humans all have it in us to hate on each other for being different.

@Hettya

This is the world we live in Afromeg. The world of the perpetually offended. Words are twisted to mean something they're not. It's present in absolutely everything now. And people are shamed and forced to apologise for it and promise to educate themselves to do better. Or be cancelled for wrong think. Horrible isn't it.

Well yes. The best thing to do is ignore the shaming and cries of bigot! Racist! etc and carry on living the best and most decent way you can, which I genuinely believe the majority try to. Therefore I shrug off attempts to twist my words, I reject assertions that I am something I know I am not according to some nonsense theory that came out of some obscure social sciences department in the US a few decades ago, and cut off engaging with those clearly acting in bad faith. You learn to be able to tell after a while and it's always best to not get bogged down in dogmatic questions that are designed to elicit a very specific answer that can be used against you.

@Hettya

This is the world we live in Afromeg. The world of the perpetually offended. Words are twisted to mean something they're not. It's present in absolutely everything now. And people are shamed and forced to apologise for it and promise to educate themselves to do better. Or be cancelled for wrong think. Horrible isn't it.

I don’t think this is true. It actually makes me cringe internally when people say they don’t see colour. I would never say anything though. It’s not meant badly but it is extremely naive. It seems people are jumping to either extreme. Either demanding people be cancelled and being aggressively confrontational or, at the other extreme, dismissing valid concerns as wokeness. The girls in Rotherham were victims of racist abuse. The Jewish community has certainly been subject to very recent and sustained attacks. I do find it a little hard to take some posters complaining about feeling uncomfortable in predominantly black areas seriously. It shows a startling lack of understanding of how many live their lives on a daily basis.

I dont think so

I do find it a little hard to take some posters complaining about feeling uncomfortable in predominantly black areas seriously. It shows a startling lack of understanding of how many live their lives on a daily basis.

Has that been on this thread? I must have missed it if so. I have to say though that many black people express discomfort about living in predominantly white areas and my black friends here in a major city tell me they'd never move out to a smaller town or village as they wouldn't want to put their kids through the lack of diversity and potential for sticking out or experiencing racism. That is something that definitely goes both ways.

don’t think this is true. It actually makes me cringe internally when people say they don’t see colour. I would never say anything though. It’s not meant badly but it is extremely naive.

I think it's only naive insofar as people might not be expecting other's reactions and animosity to this. Because it's clumsily worded. But isn't meant badly. That's the whole point. Yet people get ripped to shreds for saying it.

We're all talking at cross purposes - we need to define our terms

Whether racism means discrimination, or discrimination + power.
Whether power structures exist outside of state level in majority white countries.

BLM as an organisation is absolutely informed by critical race theory. I don't think they hide that, the principles are on their website and statements. I saw it when I went to their GFM to donate.

It's one approach against racism, but I don't think it's the best one.

It’s not meant badly but it is extremely naive.

Do you think it's naive for them to say that they - personally, not the whole world - don't treat people differently because of their colour or that people's colour doesn't matter to them because it's what's on the inside that counts?

I can see why you'll say it's naive if they're speaking for the whole world (by saying society in general doesn't treat people differently because of their colour).

Do you cringe because you think they're lying or confused about how they personally see/treat people?

We're all talking at cross purposes - we need to define our terms

My terms are defined by the dictionary. I don't buy into the premise of accepting other people's definitions and using those instead. The dictionary definition is the correct definition.

I think when people say it it just makes it really obvious that they are unaware of systemic bias and how it works. Whereas it’s just known in people who are affected by it. There is a really wide gulf in understanding. It’s actually quite funny that some think people are accusatory when really the majority are quite silent. It’s difficult to talk about.

@Hettya

We're all talking at cross purposes - we need to define our terms

My terms are defined by the dictionary. I don't buy into the premise of accepting other people's definitions and using those instead. The dictionary definition is the correct definition.

Quite,,the word racism is clear in dictionaries and law.

@Hettya

We're all talking at cross purposes - we need to define our terms

My terms are defined by the dictionary. I don't buy into the premise of accepting other people's definitions and using those instead. The dictionary definition is the correct definition.

Agreed dictionary provides a definition so that’s the place to start. I would consider a legal definition alongside it however that would be in relation to criminal offences.

I think when people say it it just makes it really obvious that they are unaware of systemic bias and how it works.

This tells me that you think they're speaking for the world instead of a personal/individual statement, which can be true or not but has nothing to do with someone's knowledge of systemic bias or lack of.

Someone can be aware of everything to do with racism and still (choose to) not treat people differently in their personal lives. The choice to do so is the point, isn't it and that's where the world should be headed instead of dragging people back to square one each time they choose to do so, by insisting on them "seeing colour" = treating people differently because of the colour of their skin.

There's treating people differently because of skin colour and there's being mindful and respectful of people's culture, which doesn't always have anything to do with colour. It'll be great for people to do the latter but not the former.

I dont think that's necessarily true @Blackberrycream. I suppose it's a bit of a cliche at this point but originally it was meant that the speaker puts no judgement or stereotype on a person because of their colour. Nobody can speak for everybody but they can speak for themselves in everyday individual interactions.

I suppose it's another example of the importance of clear language. It literally is untrue so that leaves it open to interpretation.

@Afromeg
I would never say it of myself.I try to do my best and treat people equally, as many, probably most, do. We do have underlying assumptions though, all of us. Denying it causes more problems and is ultimately quite insulting. There is enough analysis of different outcomes to know that it is a deep problem.

We're all talking at cross purposes - we need to define our terms

You're absolutely right but the problem is that words are being redefined when discussed around social justice ideology so the definitions are no longer stable. There's no longer an agreed meaning and that's intentional. For example anyone who isn't "left" - by the way that actually means far left, is now conveniently defined as being far right/facist/alt right and this means they can be vilified and ignored. The result of this being that everyone is frightened that they might actually be that without realising, so keep shuffling further and further left to avoid those labels, buying ever more into SJ ideology as they go.

I get my meaning from the dictionary and discuss accordingly, though for some, THAT is racist.