Can white people ever experience racism?

[LittleRedCourgettes]

Following a discussion on this topic with some students, I was reading this article and am interested to hear your honest thoughts on this question.....

https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/wherediddwegetttheideaathatonlyywhitepeopleecanbeeracist

DD is regularly called ‘milky’ in her role as a police officer. Also referred to as white bitch on an almost daily basis too.

What if your underlying assumptions are quite mild though, on the level of British like tea, the French are well dressed, black people like rap? Loads in these groups don't, obviously, but if I as an individual harbour these cultural associations what harm is that? Nobody is denying anyone humanity with those sort of things.
To be clear I'm not talking about people who have presumptions of stupidity or criminality or terrorism based on race. Or worse, act on those presumptions. But the two examples I've given are not the same thing or necessarily found together

Sorry, that's to @Blackberrycream

@Blackberrycream Yes we do and a decent person tries to work on their negative assumptions constantly.

What I don't understand is why some people try to fish out these underlying assumptions only when it has to do with race? I mean, isn't it decent enough that someone is trying to treat people equally? Isn't it okay to take them at their word and hope they're also fixing their unconscious bias, as you work on fixing yours in other areas (if not the same area but in different ways)? Or do people think they're perfect in every other way because they know a lot about racism?

Why do some people have to call people out on that statement, when you know what they're saying, just to prove what exactly? That they're neglecting their unconscious bias or the whole world's unconscious bias (as if they're responsible for the whole world)? Why does it have to be one or the other?

How many times have these people called out someone else who tries to treat people equally or the way they should be treated in other areas of life? Why only on racial issues?

This makes me think that it says more about the person trying to fish out the potential racism/underlying bias in someone who genuinely says they "don't see colour" than the person who makes that statement genuinely (and I don't mean people who obviously say one thing and do the opposite).

They're bigger fishes to fry than trying to do a 'gotcha' on people or trying to put it to people that they are closet racists just because they made an innocuous statement.

Most teachers would think they also make no negative assumptions but they do.
GCSE. Predictions for black children are inaccurate and under predicted year on year, compared with other groups that are inaccurate and over predicted. This is a statistical difference that is consistent year on year.
People take this issue of underlying bias extremely personally. It is not a personal attack. It is something to be aware of though and really can’t improve until it is able to be talked about openly. As a class teacher, I never thought I was immune to these kind of biases. It probably made me extra careful as I would question myself as to my expectations of children.
I’ve seen very obvious examples with my own children.

It depends on how you define race. Moving from Wales to England and a posh bit populated by public school/Dartmouth educated naval officers at that, no one would discriminate against me for the colour of my skin (red hair perhaps) but the minute I opened my mouth....

the Welsh are the only nation left where it still seems OK to say what you like about them - Anne Robinson didn't even get a slap on the wrist for being rude about the Welsh in Room 101.

@Afromeg
I agree with you about some of the aggression. It is really not most people though. We just hear from those people the most!

Sorry, that still doesn't make sense to me. What has that got to do with 'BAME stuff and it getting out of hand' or even this thread or is it a reply to something else?

That was to @ElliFAntspoo

[quote Blackberrycream]@Afromeg
I agree with you about some of the aggression. It is really not most people though. We just hear from those people the most![/quote]
True.

Yes.

Actually, yes they are. The Scottish are descended from the Celtic British population that inhabited the British Isles and Ireland before the Romans invaded. After the Romans left, the Angles invaded who were a tribe of Saxons (hence Anglo Saxon). The Angles then pushed the Britons westwards where they took refuge in the mountains of Scotland and Wales and in what is now Cornwall. Many fled to France and founded Brittany. After they’d taken over most of Britain, they named their lands Angle-Land and they were called the Aenglish. This over the next five hundred years got shortened to England and English.

But they are definitely different races, the DNA of a Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Cornish are distinguishable from the DNA of an English person.

This isn't true and is really old fashioned history from the Victorian period

The people of northern western Europe are north western Europeans, descended mostly from pre Roman tribes and that includes the English. They are all very much the same race, proven by recent DNA studies. "Celt" is not an ethnicity or race anyway and never was. It is a language branch and time period.

There is very little evidence for a large scale replacement by Anglo Saxons in Britain. Before DNA research it was assumed graves in an A-S style must have contained A-S's but we know now this isn't the case, especially with a common grave

Ancient burial practices do not indicate ethnicity, but rather culture. For example if someone in the USA now was to be buried with their Samsung phone, this does not make them South Korean, or someone in Brazil buried with BMW car keys does not make them German.

[quote Afromeg]@Blackberrycream Yes we do and a decent person tries to work on their negative assumptions constantly.

What I don't understand is why some people try to fish out these underlying assumptions only when it has to do with race? I mean, isn't it decent enough that someone is trying to treat people equally? Isn't it okay to take them at their word and hope they're also fixing their unconscious bias, as you work on fixing yours in other areas (if not the same area but in different ways)? Or do people think they're perfect in every other way because they know a lot about racism?

Why do some people have to call people out on that statement, when you know what they're saying, just to prove what exactly? That they're neglecting their unconscious bias or the whole world's unconscious bias (as if they're responsible for the whole world)? Why does it have to be one or the other?

How many times have these people called out someone else who tries to treat people equally or the way they should be treated in other areas of life? Why only on racial issues?

This makes me think that it says more about the person trying to fish out the potential racism/underlying bias in someone who genuinely says they "don't see colour" than the person who makes that statement genuinely (and I don't mean people who obviously say one thing and do the opposite).

They're bigger fishes to fry than trying to do a 'gotcha' on people or trying to put it to people that they are closet racists just because they made an innocuous statement.[/quote]
Good post.

I’ve never seen that fishing for offence happen in real life though. Is it really such a big problem? I think there is a vocal group of people who like to think they are on the ’ right’ side of every issue and have very little self reflection. I saw the BLM issue being co opted and quite frankly it is the last thing anyone needs. I saw some statements on this site saying only Labour voters could support it. Only people who have no real experience of this and no real incentive to want improvements can possibly think it is helpful to be so divisive.
There are bigger fish to fry. Some of the reaction to BLM is really just distraction. It’s not a left/ right issue as much as some would like to make it that way. It’s a matter of basic decency and the nitpicking around it is disgusting.
Back to the main question, yes anyone can experience a racist incident however most groups are treated fairly by the education system and the judicial system. I do think anti semitism has become quite ingrained/ tolerated in some quarters.

Some English people in Scotland
Jewish people
Travelers
Irish people until about 20 years ago

Just a few examples

@Flaxmeadow

Actually, yes they are. The Scottish are descended from the Celtic British population that inhabited the British Isles and Ireland before the Romans invaded. After the Romans left, the Angles invaded who were a tribe of Saxons (hence Anglo Saxon). The Angles then pushed the Britons westwards where they took refuge in the mountains of Scotland and Wales and in what is now Cornwall. Many fled to France and founded Brittany. After they’d taken over most of Britain, they named their lands Angle-Land and they were called the Aenglish. This over the next five hundred years got shortened to England and English.

But they are definitely different races, the DNA of a Scottish, Welsh, Irish and Cornish are distinguishable from the DNA of an English person.

This isn't true and is really old fashioned history from the Victorian period

The people of northern western Europe are north western Europeans, descended mostly from pre Roman tribes and that includes the English. They are all very much the same race, proven by recent DNA studies. "Celt" is not an ethnicity or race anyway and never was. It is a language branch and time period.

There is very little evidence for a large scale replacement by Anglo Saxons in Britain. Before DNA research it was assumed graves in an A-S style must have contained A-S's but we know now this isn't the case, especially with a common grave

Ancient burial practices do not indicate ethnicity, but rather culture. For example if someone in the USA now was to be buried with their Samsung phone, this does not make them South Korean, or someone in Brazil buried with BMW car keys does not make them German.

Sorry Flaxmedow but it is true. It’s in current history books. Why else do you think Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Ireland all speak a different language? They are a different ethnicity with different ancestors. And I never said that Anglo Saxons did a “large scale” replacement of “Britain” I stated correctly that the parts of Britain they conquered and colonised became known as Angle-Land, or now England.

Culture and ethnicity go hand in hand. It’s ridiculous for you to suggest otherwise. And your Samsung phone example is stupid beyond belief. Archaeologists know the difference between trade goods and indigenous goods in burials.

@Flaxmeadow
They are all very much the same race, proven by recent DNA studies

This is completely false. And as for “race” there has been no agreed on number of races ever by the scientists who created the terminology to describe different ethnicities. Some said there are only a few races, others have identified hundreds of races. Race is a social construct and that is why it is legally defined as including ethnicity.

@Blackberrycream

Most teachers would think they also make no negative assumptions but they do. GCSE. Predictions for black children are inaccurate and under predicted year on year, compared with other groups that are inaccurate and over predicted. This is a statistical difference that is consistent year on year. People take this issue of underlying bias extremely personally. It is not a personal attack. It is something to be aware of though and really can’t improve until it is able to be talked about openly. As a class teacher, I never thought I was immune to these kind of biases. It probably made me extra careful as I would question myself as to my expectations of children. I’ve seen very obvious examples with my own children.

Yes, teachers do, but not necessarily being racist, sometimes just ill informed. The amount of our kids attending school who are assumed to be "settled" whatever this means, and travelling is their past. If your blood is Romany then you are a traveller whether you live on a site or travel. Some of us live in bricks n mortar, we are still travellers. We still have the worst educational outcomes of any ethnic minority.

I see @2oldforthis couldn't come back to expand on what is meant by 'dodgy name' here, just like @Sinuche did with 'coloured people'. I wonder why...

"Anyone with a dodgy name..." How dense can someone be to make that statement about different sounding names which are unusual to you? I'll bet someone like this never ever considers that their name also sounds "dodgy" to some people.

Wonder how you 'avoid anyone with a "dodgy" name professionally', hopefully you're not a recruiter.

It doesn’t take long for some pretty ugly opinions to emerge.

I, for one, think it's best for ugly opinions to emerge so people know who to correct or avoid. If everyone is forced to suppress their ugly opinions, there's:
a) no chance of ever being corrected and/or
b) no chance of knowing who has these opinions or not because suppression doesn't mean it'll disappear.

So, someone like that pp, if what was written is what I think is meant, is someone I'd like to know in real life, not to report or force to give a fake apology but so I'll begin the 'steering-clear strategy' myself, rather than have someone like that smile in my face and do something else behind my back.