Woman thrown out of Sainsbury's for not wearing a mask.

[Viviennemary]

When asked why she wasn't wearing one she told the police they were not allowed to challenge her or ask about her disability. (wrong apparently). She said she'd be taking them to court. Police have criticised ministers for giving conflicting advice. I think it's time this was cleared up. It's far too vague. So seems like people do need some proof of the reasons they can't wear a mask.

Having PTSD doesn't mean you won't wear a mask.

It might do if you had asphyxia as part of your trauma. In which case you should have a letter from a doctor explaining your particular issue.

Shops can refuse entry on basis of safety for workers I think (rather than as they used to for racist reasons) as unmasked shoppers present a potential health risk. Same as disability dogs etc?

@RustySpringboard

Forgive me if this has already been said but there are quite a few anti-maskers going out deliberately getting themselves filmed in supermarkets and posting the results on twitter. It's got to the point where I can't be arsed to differentiate between those who may have a genuine grievance and felt they were treated high handedly, and those who haven't. Just wear the mask. If anyone has a medical reason for not - get a letter from your doctor to carry.

Yes - probably of the same ilk as the people who are going to refuse the vaccine because apparently it’s just the same as the flu

The main issue is a lot of people go in with the view "how can I not wear one" instead of "what can mean I could"

There should be comparably few disabilities that prevent you from wearing a mask, and these disabilities don't necessarily correlate with increased vulnerability. For instance having a nerve issue may prevent mask wearing but doesn't inherently make you more vulnerable, but someone with asthma might well feel confident in wearing a mask.

Both people should also ask themselves, what can I do to wear something, can I wear a light scarf, or a visor? If no, that's fine.

But as pp have said, many disabilities are unfortunately used to having to 'prove', rightly or wrongly that they are disabled. And these challenges are made worse by people claiming they are disabled when they are not. Truthfully, if more people are claiming they are disabled, people are less likely to be believe it and so be more probing in their questioning.

Other exemptions as well, again should be asking what they can do to wear one. Again if no, that's fine.

Its so so hard but there are an awful lot of people not wearing them, in all areas. If a proportionly small number of the population are truly exempt, then when you see, even anecdotally 50%, or whole families not wearing one, then you do start wondering. It's easier then to 'demonise' non-mask wearers and claim they're making everything worse and they should just stay home.

As normal the selfish few ruin it for those genuinely in need. Unfortunately it does mean more costs and responsibility on those truly exempt to prove it. Perhaps some claim back scheme, where you can pay, prove your entitlement and claim back the expenses of having to pay for doctors notes etc.

It's totally unfair but the world is full of selfish idiots who can't see past their own little bubble.

In a sensible world, one without anri this, that and the otherers, we wouldn't need exemption cards.

It's only because we have stupidly selfsih twats that any of this is an issue!

Disability organisations have now written to the Chair of NPCC about this:

Government guidance has been contradicted by senior police figures including Ken Marsh, Chair of the Metropolitan Police Federation who told press: “If you have a medical reason for not wearing a mask, you now have to print off a clarification that proves you have an exemption." No such requirement exists in law.

West Midlands Police Force has twice had to apologise for its officers, after an asthmatic man was handcuffed and issued with a fine for failing to supply evidence of his condition, and another man was escorted out of a supermarket for having no proof of his exemption.

A West Midlands Police officer was recorded telling an individual that supplying evidence of a disability would not prevent officers from issuing a Fixed Penalty Notice and that people would have to prove their exemption in court. The force has still not apologised for this,and issued a statement of support for the actions.

www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2021/january/disabled-people-still-facing-mask-discrimination-%E2%80%93-dr-uk-writes-chair-police

According to this article, An NPCC spokeswoman said that officers have clear guidance on the exemptions and clarified that there is no requirement to provide medical proof of an exemption.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/disabled-people-could-bear-the-brunt-of-confusing-face-covering-laws

Interestingly, we didn't have this problem with piss-takers when they brought in the priority hour/queue jumping for NHS workers, because there were hoops you had to jump through. You couldn't just rock up and say 'I'm NHS' and be let in instantly.

People would absolutely have taken advantage just as they are now if that was the case.

Rusty, I agree, its become silly. Just stop talking about your rights being more important than anyone else when its OTHER people's health that you are affecting.

I think some people on this thread just want to make a point which is fine but its affecting other people around them (whether you are exempt or not - no one really knows, (this silly moo seems to just be trying to make a point)

I have a question. If one of these people stating that you shouldnt be challenging ANYONE without a mask...

What if there were two people in a shop without masks wandering around, taking a while to choose their items because there is two of them and maybe they are older - would you honestly be comfortable around them. Would you like your elderly parent to be in the same shop as them. In the same aisle?

The lady in front of me without a mask and a sign around her neck saying she was exempt - I gave her a really wide berth. But the cashier couldnt. She was literally spraying her spittle in her face, not in an agressive way but is that OK with you because she is apparently exempt.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

I am so fucking sick of this

Little Stasi wannabes picking on women (it's always women) and people backing them up!!

She's right - she has NO obligation to share her information. I thought she behaved brilliantly. She was calm, she knew her rights, and the prick police officers refused to even look at the law she was presenting them (doesn't surprise me as they seem to like to make it up). I hope she does sue them.

The sad thing is there was probably a battered wife or a mugging victim who didn't get an audience with police after their attack because they're too busy implementing 1984 in Sainsbury's. Awful. I'm genuinely terrified with the way the world is going.

And shame on those of you who think this is OK.

Here here!

Surely the key here though is attitude. If people just walk round and get their shopping without a lot of fuss and keep a decent distance then I rarely notice if someone is wearing a mask or not.
If they quietly tell the door person that they’re exempt I’ve never seen anyone question them.
If, however, they shout at the door person about their exempt status and then wander about the store chatting and laughing on their mobile and not even attempting to distance then yes, I judge them....and I think they deserve all the shit that’s coming their way 🤷🏻‍♀️

Disability absolutely is.

...but you know that.

Yes, obviously. Feel free to point out where I said it wasn't.

I specifically asked whether being an anti masker was a protected characteristic. (It isn't)

But you know that.

My son was working during the last lockdown and there was a special area for NHS to use. There were toilet rolls, bread, rice etc (remember the twats stocking up on those items!).

The NHS people had to show their badge to get into this roped off area. A random women followed him and the nurse in and started trying to help herself and when she was challenged she said her need was great, elderly relative, then that she was disabled.

Some people are just shocking and use anything they can.

I have now come to the conclusion that there are perhaps 10% of people who arent wearing masks who genuinely cant. The rest - well, I think there are the chancers and then people who could but just dont want to.

I have no idea if these % are correct but neither has anyone else. That is the issue!

I suspect that, had they managed to spin mask wearing as protecting the wearer and not others, there would be fewer exempt people.

James Middleton - I think you will find that this women is an anti vaxer. But that is OK because you thought she behaved brilliantly.

@Sparklfairy

Interestingly, we didn't have this problem with piss-takers when they brought in the priority hour/queue jumping for NHS workers, because there were hoops you had to jump through. You couldn't just rock up and say 'I'm NHS' and be let in instantly.

People would absolutely have taken advantage just as they are now if that was the case.

I have in fact suggested on here that there be a MASK EXEMPT HOUR when all those who cannot wear masks could shop without anyone at all asking them anything or making them feel uncomfortable or anyone being er, 'Nazi'-like.

Shops would not be discriminating against shoppers, mask exempt would not feel discriminated against. Win win surely?

It caused huge outrage on this board for some reason.

[quote Fuckingcrustybread]@frumpety
He was talking to an ex colleague the other day who lives in France, they said everyone wears a mask to the shops, is it a UK thing or are other European countries having the same issues ?
I'm in a European country, there are no issues here about people who are mask exempt. No mask, no entry. It's definitely a U.K. thing.[/quote]
Yes, exactly the same where I live.
I have once seen a down syndrome person on the tram who was being told by his carer to put it back on, but have not seen anyone else over th required age not wearing a mask at all (some don't wear them properly).

It's just not a thing here.

@Sparklfairy

Interestingly, we didn't have this problem with piss-takers when they brought in the priority hour/queue jumping for NHS workers, because there were hoops you had to jump through. You couldn't just rock up and say 'I'm NHS' and be let in instantly.

People would absolutely have taken advantage just as they are now if that was the case.

Are you kidding? Loads of people did that where I am so many that the.queue for the NHS workers was longer than the other one!! In the end they stated that ONLY current and valid NHS ID would be accepted because people rocked up claiming they were NHS wanting to queue jump and go their 10% off. There were all kinds of arguments here against the NHS needing to provide proof.

The NHS aren't going to give exemption letters to those exempt. Sadly that means those who are will get increasing abuse thrown their way. I'm exempt, on multiple grounds and it's horrendous the way I get treated,

We need a better, more rigorous system than self ID. There should be a badge, official and unreproducible, issued on the approval of the GP.

The problem is of course that under the present system anyone can say they're disabled and it can't be challenged. And I get that if you have a disability you don't want to be forced to explain to everyone you meet. But it leaves the door far too wide open to abuse.

If I 'borrow' a blue badge, park at the supermarket in the last blue badge space just ahead of you, leap out and race to the entrance, and emerge 15 minutes later carrying two 24 packs of lager, would you be happy I'd taken the space on the grounds that it means you don't have to prove your disability either? (Details have been changed, but I saw this happen at Asda one day. I used to go in their cafe occasionally, but the large cafe windows looked out directly on to the blue badge spaces, and I saw them being apparently abused and I got so angry my blood pressure couldn't take it and I don't go there any more.)

We have a real issue with men self IDing as female because we see the possibilities for abuse of that right, why don't we have the same issue with those people who self identify as disabled? Bearing in mind that the legislation refers to people with a disability. So if she doesn't have one, she isn't protected.

@SoupDragon

I suspect that, had they managed to spin mask wearing as protecting the wearer and not others, there would be fewer exempt people.

No, it would be even worse because more people would be able to claim they're willing to take the risk. I'd be tempted not to wear one myself if it was for my own benefit only.

Do you understand that many people cannot wear masks for medical reasons? Can you comprehend that or shall I explain it more slowly?

I'd be very interested to know what medical reasons. Experiments prove that masks do not inhibit breathing. What other medical reasons are there?

My GP says there are none and everyone can wear them but some choose not to.

@Haffiana i saw that suggestion, and I think the argument was the poor staff being exposed to a shop full of non mask wearers. Personally I really like the idea and would solve the problem, and a little bit of organisation from management could mean full shelves and no staff on the shop floor for just one hour. Maybe self checkout only too.

No solution is ideal, but at this point almost anything is better than this!

There's some anti-mask sockpuppeting going on in this thread, I think. I've reported it to MNHQ.

@Becca19962014 I had no idea. I didn't take much notice as it didn't apply to me, but I thought you had to show proof you were actually NHS all along, maybe I only noticed when it was finally brought in because of the piss takers.

Fucksake. People are arseholes.

Exempt hour wouldn't work as you're assuming every disabled person can go shopping at one specific designated time. Not every exempt person is on benefits and not working. I know people who work, including in supermarket, and are exempt from wearing a mask. Also you still have the same problem - how do you know all of those people are genuinely exempt?

Our vulnerable hour twice a week are jammed with people - it's actually more dangerous to go shopping then than any other time - both are at times that are, for me, difficult. I can't get up, ready, have my meds and to the shop for 8am one day a week. I need shopping more than once a week too due to lack of space.

The NHS workers here complained about their priority hours and now get priority all the time.

im generally of the opinion that anyone GENUINELY exempt would be open/honest with the police for their reasons for not wearing a mask, and not be confrontational, aggressive, belligerent and rude to the officers just doing their job, or record the incident while shouting about their rights, and threatening to report them.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

I am so fucking sick of this

Little Stasi wannabes picking on women (it's always women) and people backing them up!!

She's right - she has NO obligation to share her information. I thought she behaved brilliantly. She was calm, she knew her rights, and the prick police officers refused to even look at the law she was presenting them (doesn't surprise me as they seem to like to make it up). I hope she does sue them.

The sad thing is there was probably a battered wife or a mugging victim who didn't get an audience with police after their attack because they're too busy implementing 1984 in Sainsbury's. Awful. I'm genuinely terrified with the way the world is going.

And shame on those of you who think this is OK.

This.