British class system

[fandigo]

I've watched enough British telly to get the difference between working, middle and upper class but then i read on here about 'upper middle class'.. what's that? And is there a lower middle class and a medium middle class? Does this then apply to the other classes. So for example an "upper working class" or a "lower upper class"

I know it's a contentious topic on here because the Brits get accused of being obsessed with class (i disagree with that) but it would be interesting to hear what attributes people need to fit into the class within the class.

I could probably Wikipedia this 🤔

@BalloonSlayer

DH reckons it's more attitude than anything else. He says it would never have occurred to his parents to buy a house, no matter how much they had earned, and that's a working class thing. He says I am middle class as my parents owned their own home, despite my Dad being a manual worker.

DH still claims to be working class however, despite owning his own home, earning a good salary in a management role etc. I think he is now middle class but he's not having any of it.

Other things DH says are middle class and thus contemptible:

couscous
avocados
tapas
skiing
Tuscany (sun dried tomatoes are ok though cos he likes them)
Buy-to-let
goats' cheese
risotto

I could go on . . .

I agree about goat cheese. 🤢

Goats cheese is what Greek farmers eat- how can that be a middle class food?

Fandigo, my hubby & I often joke our kids were overlooked on the Gaelscoil list as our dc don't have the obligitary obscure Irish name that seems to be one of the hidden entry requirement

Those who use I myself are middle, class in contemporary terms. Not well educated enough to know when to correctly use I and me; too well educated not to care.

@Brightonbabe5 i didn't even consider applying to the one in my area because the parents have to do an interview with the principal as gaeilge! Also, my children aren't called Odhran or Caoilfhionn

At the beginning of the century. There was a rise in middle class when epople could afford people to work for them. If you have a cleaner/gardener regular window wahser you are likely to be middle class. But another one the head of Pimlico plumbing made a large business so is an employer, drives a fancy car, has personal staff, but he opens his mouth and you know he is working class.

Fandigo. I'm not sure about the interviews in our local ones as we didn't get that far!
The frustrating thing is most of the parents we know haven't spoken any Irish since their leaving cert, they freely admit it not do they have any love of the language or culture.
DH is from the Gaeltacht & an Irish language education was something he had really hoped for... Unfortunately we weren't "in" the right circles & hadn't a clue about waiting lists... He does make an extra effort at home with the Irish though & the dc seem to enjoy it... Our "friends" are always quick to remark that they're getting a private education at the Gaelscoil for free....

@Brightonbabe5 that's really unfortunate, and unfair given your husband's background . Not sure how old your kids are but they've changed the admissions policies for all schools (i think) in that you can only put their name down the year before they'd be due to start. We were worried because my children aren't baptised but they got rid of that particular requirement before it would have affected us and then we got the place in the Educate Together anyway.

What do they mean by the private education for free thing? Are class sizes smaller and more resources?

What about celebrities from working class backgrounds (footballer for example) who grew up piss poor and whatever the descriptor was for the lowest class.. then come into tons of money and raise their children in an incredibly privileged way. Do those children now count as upper class or only if they start playing polo and adopt a different accent to their parents?

@fandigo I think it’s partly about how celebrities’ kids identify themselves and whether they feel they fit in.

@Northernstar1245 i think you've summed up the entire thing in one sentence. Individuals know where they slot in. It seems to be just one of those things that can’t really be explained to people who weren't tested with it.

As always on Mumsnet, an interesting discussion. Ages ago i asked about the GCSE/A levels and that was fairly incomprehensible too 😂

Sorry i meant "reared" with it

Fandigo, I think what they imply is that the Gaelscoileanna are usually... filled with white middle class kids not many (if any) non nationals who naturally feel excluded due to the language barrier ... whose parents usually have English as a first language (& aquire a love of Gaeilge at the first positive pregnancy test).... gaelscoils don't have many kids with special educational needs or autism unfortunately again due to learning through a different language spoken outside the home..
Our friends think their school is able to plough through the curriculum & expand the curriculum due to the above reasons.
They're also well aware of the many benefits growing up bilingual. DH is doing great work with the dc, Irish isn't a big focus in their school however sports, music & drama is huge

What class do you think David Beckham is Fandingo? Although I must confess although the accent grates when I listened to him on Desert Island Disks I thought he sounded a very nice and decent chap.

@RosesAndHellebores i think he's working class originally because i remember reading an article about his sister being on benefits despite his millions. Can’t say I've heard his children speaking so not sure about their accents but presumably they go to posh schools, have the best of everything and fly first class etc. But then they might not go to university because, why bother when you're already filthy rich.

In summary. I think DB was working class, now nouveau riche which falls under the upper class heading but i don't know about his kids.

Fandigo he is not and never will be upper class. His children are nouveau riche regardless of their schools and whether they travel first class.

In the 21st century I don't think the attitude of not bothering with education prevails where there is money.

I could be projecting, if my parents were gazillionaires i wouldn't have gone to university. I'd be enjoying the fruits of their labour doing fuck all.

Seems some people think you can move up and down the class ladder whereas others don't. I know what you mean though, he can put on a hunting jacket and shoot a pheasant but that's not the same as driving a battered Land Rover around a property that's been in your family for generations.

High grant - upper class?

yup, catholic schools are the most diverse now!

Fandigo, I replied to you a couple of posts up with a reply to your question x

sorry i missed that @Brightonbabe5 i never thought about it like that. Well i reckon you dodged a bullet, your husband can bring them on in their Irish and they'll have the benefit of mixing with a wide rang of kids. I would hate my children to be in a classroom with no diversity at all. Now i get what you mean about the private education comment though. Takes all sorts i suppose but they can keep their Fiadh's and feidhlims, I'd much rather a few Juan's and Nazim's thrown into the mix!

@fandigo

I could be projecting, if my parents were gazillionaires i wouldn't have gone to university. I'd be enjoying the fruits of their labour doing fuck all.

Seems some people think you can move up and down the class ladder whereas others don't. I know what you mean though, he can put on a hunting jacket and shoot a pheasant but that's not the same as driving a battered Land Rover around a property that's been in your family for generations.

High grant - upper class?

But whether they were gazillionaires or not would have no impact on your class status, OP. That’s just ‘rich’. Income isn’t the main or only component in social class.

Anyway, the British class system doesn’t really map onto the Irish one. Part of the issue is the lack of an industrial revolution in most of Ireland, and it being a largely rural agricultural society till quite recently, so you had strong vs small farmer vs landless labourers, and of course a largely imported Anglo-Irish ‘upper class’.

Hugh Grant is from a mixed kind of background — military, minor aristocracy, his mother was a state school teacher, his father was in the army, I think — but went to private school and Oxford.

I suppose I’d class him as middle/upper-middle.

Totally agree Fandigo, the dc aged 5 & 9 are in a very diverse school. They're getting a wide education due to the various nationalities in their classes, all cutures are celebrated. The local Gaelscoils in comparison only celebrate the Irish culture as they only have Irish intake... There is definitely an inverted snobbery ingrained in the parents of the local Gaelscoileanna that I don't find at dc's private

I think it's really important (in the minor context of this thread!) to note that money doesn't really change your class: you aren't catapulted up to upper middle class by winning the lottery. You don't become lower middle class by not having much money if you were previously middle class - those parts are changed partly by money but significantly by cultural capital - pastimes, hobbies, social circles.

It is possible to change class but it generally happens a generation later usually I think?

My parents didn't have much money when we young, but we have land, and education was highly valued. Their parents both worked in traditional professions (actuary, dentist). Their friends were generally in professional jobs - software engineers, lawyers, accountants, structural surveys, teachers. Their hobbies are middle class: art (viewing and doing), classical and modern music, gardens, cultural heritage stuff). They are very middle class in spite of the lack of cash, and my siblings and I will be higher earners than them because of their focus on our education. (While likely remaining middle middle class.)

Then there are people like my friend: her dad grew up in a solidly working class household. He went to grammar school and then a polytechnic and became a salesman and was incredibly well paid: far better than my parents - but they are realistically still lower middle class. On the other hand their children are solidly middle middle class.

Then you have the upper middle class: probably public school, probably a second home somewhere smart, most likely a highly paid professional and almost certainly middle class for several generations previously on at least one side of the family.

I think my feeling about this is that you can change class but only one "rung" per generation.

So working class growing up, make plenty of money and take a middle class job and you'll probably transition to lower middle class. Your children might be lower middle class too, or they might hop up a rung into middle middle class, depending on what happens with their education etc.

Thank you @TheQueef I love the Four Yorkshireman and haven’t watched it for ages.

I’m Australian so have nothing else to add to the thread.