British class system

[fandigo]

I've watched enough British telly to get the difference between working, middle and upper class but then i read on here about 'upper middle class'.. what's that? And is there a lower middle class and a medium middle class? Does this then apply to the other classes. So for example an "upper working class" or a "lower upper class"

I know it's a contentious topic on here because the Brits get accused of being obsessed with class (i disagree with that) but it would be interesting to hear what attributes people need to fit into the class within the class.

I could probably Wikipedia this 🤔

@perditaplum

perditaplum *@PlanDeRaccordement*

Where do you fit in if you went to private school, have a postgraduate degree and are a worker bee with children who receive free school meals?

Working class. The person has dropped down from middle class. Class mobility isn’t just one way.

So class is all about the money then ? What if they were 'working class' when they got the degrees ?

It’s not just about money though! If you lose all your money your class actually stays the same as it’s part of who you are. I would say in the example given that the person is part of the intelligentsia which is normally middle class and highly educated. It doesn’t matter what you earn. You would get along with middle class people more than the majority of those who are in tori income bracket.

[quote fandigo]@Janegrey333 you got me there. I find it hard to type because my fingers are so laden down with antique jewels [/quote]
If you wear too much jewellery, then you are not being very refined so perhaps you belong in a lower class.

If you had said in the relatively recent past that you had a degree, I would have said you were being economical with the actualité.

Class is complicated.

It's a mixture of upbringing, money and current occupational status.

My family are working class originally. Both my grandmothers were domestic servants pre-war and left school at 14. My paternal grandfather made the transition to middle class post war (he was a sergeant pilot in the RAF which helped). My mother's family were slower to transition (not so bright?) and my Mum and her sister became middle class by marriage and some very snobbish attitudes (no ITV when i was a child, affected use of language etc.)

My siblings and I are all professionals. We would all define ourselves as middle class but when I look around my social circle (I was privately educated and went to a prestigious university) the divisions within middle class become apparent.

Despite earning more, and in some cases having a more recognisable profession I will never be as middle class as my friend whose father went to Eton and who grew up in a household with 2 holiday homes. Or my friend whose family have owned the same law practice since the 1880s...

[quote GintyMcGinty]**@verylittlepen* whereas the working classes frequently own ferrets*

Do you really believe that?

[/quote]
Clearly she has not been paying attention to Alan Bennett!

Upper class people drink earl grey, working class people drink PG Tips

Oooh I drink Earl grey! I must be upper class. All other areas of my life suggest not. But maybe it’s something I’ve just never realised.

@perditaplum

No it’s not all about money. It’s the need for state benefits to survive financially plus the low status as a worker bee.

What kind of jobs would you say are 'worker bee' jobs?

Any job where you have no subordinates.

It’s not just about money though! If you lose all your money your class actually stays the same as it’s part of who you are.

Yes.

Is class connected to your values?

If you lose all your money your class actually stays the same

For me that only applies if you have an aristocratic title. Only the upper class can live in genteel poverty.

For middle class commoners, losing all your money and needing state benefits sends you straight down to working class.

Yes, the class you were raised in and were is part of your identity. But it’s a past identity. Just like a person can start life working class and become middle class, the opposite can happen too. Social mobility goes up and down.

@Elephant4

Is class connected to your values?

I believe so.

There was a survey with questions a couple of years ago ( it may have been linked to the BBC but I’m not sure). It was mentioned on here. It did ask about money but it also asked about your friends and your hobbies. I scored as UpperMC or the equivalent. I grew up on a council estate. I’m the first and only member of my family to go into higher education. My profession is teaching which is not exactly starry.
I think what skewed it was that I have friends from a very wide range of backgrounds and professions ( cleaner, writer, art director, care worker, barrister ...etc) and my interests are also quite eclectic. I checked later by giving narrower answers and it did affect the outcome.

@PlanDeRaccordement

If you lose all your money your class actually stays the same

For me that only applies if you have an aristocratic title. Only the upper class can live in genteel poverty.

For middle class commoners, losing all your money and needing state benefits sends you straight down to working class.

Yes, the class you were raised in and were is part of your identity. But it’s a past identity. Just like a person can start life working class and become middle class, the opposite can happen too. Social mobility goes up and down.

For me that only applies if...

It’s not about what YOU - or anyone else - decides. Class is pretty much set in stone.

@PlanDeRaccordement

If you lose all your money your class actually stays the same

For me that only applies if you have an aristocratic title. Only the upper class can live in genteel poverty.

For middle class commoners, losing all your money and needing state benefits sends you straight down to working class.

Yes, the class you were raised in and were is part of your identity. But it’s a past identity. Just like a person can start life working class and become middle class, the opposite can happen too. Social mobility goes up and down.

There may be social mobility but it is very different from class. For one thing, there is the thorny issue of fitting in - or not.

I think that the only people able to understand the British Class system are British people, we all automatically know where we belong or where others we meet belong.
As you can see from this thread not one person can explain the system. Money or education just doesn't apply to the system. Those who are adamant that they are one class are usually the one beneath. Except for the Aristocracy and Working class.

This is from an American article but it rings true in many respects:

High-Status Characteristics:

So how can you determine someone’s probable class if you don’t know their background? Look at their:

1. Speech

“An Englishman’s way of speaking absolutely classifies him,” sang Henry Higgins in My Fair Lady. “The moment he talks he makes some other Englishman despise him.”

It’s true. Accent, grammar, vocabulary – how one speaks indicates her background and schooling. Double negatives, letter dropping, and poor grammar indicate a lower class; proper grammar, ease of pronunciation, and a large vocabulary indicate a good education and thus, a higher class.

1. Food

Good table etiquette – including knowing how to hold a fork and chewing with the mouth closed – is a strong indicator of class; so is the food being consumed. While each class has its own definition of “good food,” the differences are directly related to one’s food budget. The higher classes tend to favor small portions of a wide variety of high-quality ingredients while the lower classes tend to opt for large portions of a handful of low-quality ingredients. Hence, a distinct class difference in waistlines.

Tea, anyone?

The dining table is also one of the favorite testing grounds for potential employees and spouses, to see what they eat and how they manage their place settings. Many a promising candidate has been eliminated before dessert.

1. Attire

Clothing and accessories have been used as class indicators since ancient times, and they still are today. Modest, well-fitting, occasion-appropriate pieces in fine, natural fabrics are signs of an upper class; revealing, poor-fitting, occasion-inappropriate pieces in cheap, synthetic fabrics are signs of a lower class. In many cultures, wearing a lot of makeup or showing lots of skin (legs, arms, or cleavage), marks you as a prostitute (low-class).

1. Personal Library

“You can tell a high-ranking man by the size of his library,” a mentor once told me, “and a low-ranking man by the size of his television.”

I don’t think it is set in stone but it is not just about money. It is a system of complex signifiers.
The traditional lower middle class that I come into contact with through work actually very much remind me of the working class community I grew up in. They are very keen to be recognised as middle class though ! In reality there is really very little difference in values and aspirations. White collar vs blue collar is really an outdated way of looking at class. Cultural capital is a better signifier and it’s starting to be looked at more widely.

@Janegrey333 I agree about fitting in.

I have mentioned previously that on the face of it DH and I could come across as lower, possibly middle middle. However I feel more connected to my working class heritage, so tend to feel I have more in common or I can relate to others better who share this background.

I find it cringy being around anyone snobby or obviously trying to climb up tho.

DH reckons it's more attitude than anything else. He says it would never have occurred to his parents to buy a house, no matter how much they had earned, and that's a working class thing. He says I am middle class as my parents owned their own home, despite my Dad being a manual worker.

DH still claims to be working class however, despite owning his own home, earning a good salary in a management role etc. I think he is now middle class but he's not having any of it.

Other things DH says are middle class and thus contemptible:

couscous
avocados
tapas
skiing
Tuscany (sun dried tomatoes are ok though cos he likes them)
Buy-to-let
goats' cheese
risotto

I could go on . . .

@Janegrey333
The size of your library not your television is a good way of putting it. You have to have read the books though!

What's an example of a worker bee job?

@DixieLandReject

What's an example of a worker bee job?

One without subordinates apparently so shop assistants, teachers (I don't know any teachers with teaching assistants now) etc.

Fandigo are you sure your in Dublin? 1 private school?!! There are loads in Dublin both in North & South Co Dublin....
Sutton Park
Lorerto on The Green
Mount Anville
Mount Sackville
Blackrock College
St Andrews
Rathdown
Alexandra College to name but a few.....!!!
All the most middle class & educationally driven parents I know have their kids names down for Gaelscoileanna since birth, the Gaelscoils in my area have the best reputation & largely very middle class intake.
So imo in Ireland the middle class prioritise an Irish language education if it's available.
My kids didn't get a place in the local gaelscoil, names were down too late but they attend the private at the top of our street & are making fabulous progress.
However I would say the local Gaelscoil would attract a slightly posher intake judging solely on the families I know who attend.

Double negatives, letter dropping, and poor grammar indicate a lower class Unless that letter happens to be "r" you're positively encouraged to drop an "r". Dahling!

@Brightonbabe5 yes I'm very sure I'm in dublin. I forgot about Loretto and thought the rest were just secondary schools. Haven't heard of andrews or rathdown. No doubt there's a few in rathgar and ranelagh now that i think of it. The only one i could think of was St Marys in rathmines. I suppose it goes to show I'm not mixing in the circles who send their kids to those schools.

I know about the scramble for gaeilscoils and how popular obscure irish names have become among the middle classes. My kids go to an educate together and it is very firmly middle class.

My real question was the small differences that create class within class in Britain. Now you've pointed out all of those private schools i didn't know about, it makes me think there's an upper class of sorts. But i just don't think irish people would feel comfortable with that term.

@Blackberrycream

I don’t think it is set in stone but it is not just about money. It is a system of complex signifiers. The traditional lower middle class that I come into contact with through work actually very much remind me of the working class community I grew up in. They are very keen to be recognised as middle class though ! In reality there is really very little difference in values and aspirations. White collar vs blue collar is really an outdated way of looking at class. Cultural capital is a better signifier and it’s starting to be looked at more widely.

White collar vs blue collar is really an outdated way of looking at class. Cultural capital is a better signifier and it’s starting to be looked at more widely.

The classification has changed but in reality people are going to slot into the same compartments, under the newer system. People don’t change, in essence, just because the classification does.