To end the stigma of giving birth via C-Sections? Any personal experience of this?

[christmastreesparklex]

Hi all

Discussion: Birth Choice, C-Section and recent Shrewsbury Scandal

I have come across an article, that resonates with me, not only on a personal level but also knowing several of my friends and family members have suffered with.

graziadaily.co.uk/life/real-life/c-section-elective-nhs/

I apologise if there has already been similar discussions, please link me if there has been!

On a personal level, I do not yet have DC. I have been diagnosed with health anxiety and general anxiety disorder and due to the nature of anxiety, I have spent many years leading up to TTC worrying about childbirth, even researching leads me to sweaty hands/ feeling sick.. fantastic! One of my main concerns is how unpredictable childbirth can be and whilst I have not yet come to a conclusion on whether I would like to request a ELCS (I understand that this is absolutely not an easy option without (additional) risks) I feel that this choice is in a way taken away from me and I am fully aware of the difficulties other women have had requesting one without a 'fight'. This only heightens my anxiety further.

My own mother nearly died giving birth and her second birth, with me, was much smoother with an ELCS. She suffered years of PTSD with the first birth and has always said to me to consider ELCS, I admit my mother is not a midwife or a doctor so I do take it with a pinch of salt that this advice has come from her experiences.

Having this discussion with other friends/family members, who have faced similar knock backs, a friend of mine was was recently listed all the health risks of a CS by her consultant but not a natural birth. She felt made to feel guilty and almost bullied to request an ELCS, she decided to take their professional opinion and try naturally, her birth ended up being an emergency c-section, due to shoulder dystocia and she bitterly regrets not going with her gut instinct and being swayed to have a natural birth.

Why is there such a stigma with C-Sections? Are they really more riskier to your health than the risks associated with vag births?

Has anyone else faced similar? If so, what are your experiences? To those who are pregnant do you feel pressured to have a natural birth?

Do you think the Shrewsbury scandal will lead to positive changes in this respect?

FYI: I am not a journalist and I do not give my permission to publish this post on any websites, including daily mail.

@trixiebelden77

You don’t need to give consent for a vaginal birth. You do need to give consent for a c-section, as with every other type of surgery. Consent must be informed, and the consultant therefore has a legal and ethical obligation to inform you of the risks. It would be medically negligent to do otherwise.

It’s not about ‘only listing the negatives’, it’s the normal, legally required process that accompanies ALL surgery.

You should have to though, really. The horrific possibilities shouldn't be an unknown.

You should have to though, really. The horrific possibilities shouldn't be an unknown

You can’t consent to a vaginal birth. It will happen whether you consent or not.

I do agree though women should be informed and know what to expect. I hadn’t realised my own mother thought birth was a 2 hour process, start to finish, as that’s what both her births were like. My sister in law thought she had the most horrific, prolonged birth ever, and that she was “very close” to having a cs for failure to progress. Turns out she was describing a 10 hour start to finish labour, textbook 1cm per hour dilation. I am not saying her experience wasn’t horrific, just that she had no idea that established labour went on for hours, sometimes days, which made her experience more frightening.

Knowledge is power. If women know what to expect and what is happening, how long it may take etc, they can make better decisions on the risk.

I got a c section for Tokophobia a few years ago. I was expecting to be meant with judgement & resistant, but the midwife's and consultants were brilliant & so understanding. I had my c section and it so great & I recovered well.

I am now pregnant with my second and due another c section in a few weeks, again no issues getting this.

@bluebluezoo

You should have to though, really. The horrific possibilities shouldn't be an unknown

You can’t consent to a vaginal birth. It will happen whether you consent or not.

I do agree though women should be informed and know what to expect. I hadn’t realised my own mother thought birth was a 2 hour process, start to finish, as that’s what both her births were like. My sister in law thought she had the most horrific, prolonged birth ever, and that she was “very close” to having a cs for failure to progress. Turns out she was describing a 10 hour start to finish labour, textbook 1cm per hour dilation. I am not saying her experience wasn’t horrific, just that she had no idea that established labour went on for hours, sometimes days, which made her experience more frightening.

Knowledge is power. If women know what to expect and what is happening, how long it may take etc, they can make better decisions on the risk.

I get what you mean but in a hospital its as much a procedure as anything else so unless you're doing it at home, surely you should have to consent like for any other treatment?

Yes expectations vary wildly.

Lord knows i would have lost a few friends or friends children if a c-section wasn't a safe option in a complicated birth. The whole point of the birth team is is to ensure babies are delivered safely and mothers are ok. We live in a world where we can have a much safer delivery than 50 years ago! One of the main reason for this is intervention.

Mentally labour takes a lot and you are the only one who truly knows if you can go through that. An elective c-section is not an easy way out, it is a way out for you to feel that your baby will arrive safely, its likely you will have complications if you are anxious anyway. Don't feel guilty for anyone else's opinion. It's your body and your child.

Word for word the exact same as my experience!

I feel zero guilt, and have never had my choices questioned.

I did worry a bit about the possible increased risk of allergies/asthma / decreased gut bacteria that c-section may apparently result in - I really spent quite a lot of time fretting about it with my first (planned cs for breach). I asked the nurse about it and she hadn't got a clue what I was talking about. Both my dc have allergies, and I do sometimes wonder if the c-section had a causal effect. Nothing to be done about it now though, and in both cases the c-section was the safer choice for me and the baby.

Oh I meant to quote an earlier post, which I failed to do...

I have twins, they are my rainbow babies and one was breech. In top of this they shared a placenta. Unsurprisingly I had an elective cs that was brought forward when I went in to labour before it was scheduled. However, my team were very very open to discussing my options they advised I had a section but explained other options like having a natural birth in theatre etc. I was hugely well supported so there are good doctors and midwife's out there who are happy to listen and look at different options.

I get what you mean but in a hospital its as much a procedure as anything else so unless you're doing it at home, surely you should have to consent like for any other treatment?

It isn’t “treatment”. It’s a natural process that you’re going to go through, like puberty or menopause. Yes it may need some medical input, but your choice about it and consent disappears when you decide to have a baby.

Plus, what happens if you don’t consent? What would a hospital do if a woman pitched up in advanced labour and they have to get consent before helping? What if she refuses? Many women in transition say they’ve changed their mind and don’t want to do it...

@bluebluezoo

I get what you mean but in a hospital its as much a procedure as anything else so unless you're doing it at home, surely you should have to consent like for any other treatment?

It isn’t “treatment”. It’s a natural process that you’re going to go through, like puberty or menopause. Yes it may need some medical input, but your choice about it and consent disappears when you decide to have a baby.

Plus, what happens if you don’t consent? What would a hospital do if a woman pitched up in advanced labour and they have to get consent before helping? What if she refuses? Many women in transition say they’ve changed their mind and don’t want to do it...

Its a procedure. I'm not saying they should need consent in an emergency, but when booking a woman in etc she should have to choose ELCS or VB and decide and sign accordingly

I've had 2 vaginal births. One emcs (dd2 was coming out face first and went into distress) I had an horrendous recovery as well afterwards.
I had to fight and fight to get an elective c section with dd3 as my gut instinct was that she was in the same position and she was going to be a whopper, I really didnt think my body could go through that ordeal again, 17.5 hours of labour plus the damage surgeons did to my bladder, 6 weeks of nurses coming to the house to change my dressings any wound didnt heal and an emergency blood transfusion as well.
I literally had to beg the consultants for an elective and only one listened. Even an hour before surgery they were still trying to tell me to have a normal birth..yep I had my way..dd was nearly ten pounds and was in an awkward position..had the easiest, calmest birth, out in 3 days and recovered normally within a few weeks.

Nobody I know in real life has had a problem with other people's opinions on their labour. Most normal people don't even have an opinion on someone else's labour!

I had a section (request) after suffering for zero sleep on a maternity ward after four days, with a failed induction. Most of my reasons were anxiety based; I'd not slept, I had a rough pregnancy and I was convinced I wouldn't be able to give birth effectively given the anxiety levels I felt (from lack of sleep) and the problems I'd faced in pregnancy.

It turned out it was one of the best decisions I'd ever made as my consultant told me my son was very high up and I had an very long cervix, and due to the failed induction not setting contractions off there would have been a risk of him becoming distressed. I did feel a bit like I'd failed as I'd been comfortable prior to my hospital stay with giving birth vaginally (in that I didn't have a phobia) and breastfeeding was hard but ultimately I sailed through recovery and have had zero issues with my decision since.

I did however feel that some of the staff were patronising towards me based on my anxiety and were a bit dismissive of my care because I was head strong in that decision, therefore they felt I didn't need as much support. I did, and could have done with it.

I once had a woman in a breastfeeding group tell me that I wouldn’t have needed a caesarean and that I wouldn’t be needing to exclusively pump if I trusted my body more - apparently my failings on both counts were psychosomatic and due to my believing I couldn’t do things.

I have had an ELCS (1st DC, due to breech and pre-eclampsia) followed by VBAC, which would also have been ELCS if I had known then that I could insist.

I also came across someone like this. I recall shutting her up with the comment that trusting the body clearly didn't work with our ancestors, since even a hundred years ago the maternal death rate was so high.

She tried to go on about Mother Nature, but I pointed out Mother Nature isn't bothered about women and babies surviving birth as long as enough do to perpetuate the species.

Humans are at an interesting point in terms of evolution. Babies are getting bigger, especially heads, and yet women's bodies have not quite caught up by having a bigger pelvis, etc.

I had an elective c section due to health anxiety and tokophobia. Had no problems getting it.

I have a csection 6 months ago with my first baby girl at 18 years old!
It wasn’t elective but I was a week overdue and when I finally went into labour it did not progress..I knew it was coming when they recommended I get an epidural after five hours unmediated labour.

I won’t lie and say it wasn’t terrifying, because it bloody was, but it wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be, I have my boyfriend and amazing midwife at my side who stayed late after her shift to keep me company.

I was sore and tired for a few weeks but I have my little girl and that’s all that matters, she had also done a poo in the womb and her heart rate wasn’t stable.

I don’t look back on her birth as something bad, when I look back and remember being in that room with the bright lights I smile, because it’s where I first heard my little girls voice.

I don’t feel like less of a woman or mum, I did what I had to for my baby, and that’s what being a mum is all about.

I was thrilled with my C section. Nice and civilised, taking full advantage of modern medicine and scientific progress, and no damage to my lady parts. I have no idea why it should be stigmatised because imo it’s by far the best option. I can only presume it’s an extension of this modern fetish for everything being “natural”. Natural is not always best! You wouldn’t refuse surgery for any other medical condition would you? Nobody weeps about their appendectomy being unnatural or insists on letting a painful tooth drop out by itself.

Unfortunately this fetishisation of “natural” results in a lot of people not taking advantage of the opportunities that scientific progress offers. Such as saving the lives of mums and babies who would otherwise die. While I was waiting for my surgery there was one nutty midwife who was still wittering on about how natural is best and encouraging me to withdraw my consent for the c section and have another try at giving birth naturally. I told her in no uncertain terms to fuck off. Doctors understand the necessity of c sections in some cases; it’s the dopey midwives who believe natural is best and they probably believe in shit like crystals and homeopathy as well.

Nice and civilised, taking full advantage of modern medicine and scientific progress, and no damage to my lady parts. I have no idea why it should be stigmatised because imo it’s by far the best option. I can only presume it’s an extension of this modern fetish for everything being “natural”. Natural is not always best!

This is what my mum was taught about breastfeeding in the 70’s. Formula was “scientific”, much better for babies as it was guaranteed to contain everything a baby needed, unlike breastmilk which was dependent on the mother. It was also cleaner and more hygienic, as you could sterilize to make sure all the nasty germs were dead. Unlike boobs. It was presented as far superior, modern, making use of all the latest scientific research etc. No pain, no leaky breasts, no worrying about whether the baby has had enough.

There are disadvantages to CS. In most cases a cs for the sake if it is not the best option, especially for the baby- the act of labour, contractions and travelling through the vagina prepares the baby for the outside world, squeezing the lungs, exposing the skin to beneficial bacteria, and also for the mother. It’s a physiological process. It’s not a fetish, vaginal births are recommended as on balance, like bf, it’s better for mother and baby.

I don’t think there is a stigma in having a c section, especially not in emergencies. It’s not something I’ve encountered or heard mentioned by friends - many have had c sections - it’s a quarter of births! People might raise an eyebrow at people who request a section for non medical reasons, but that’s hardly a stigma and not unreasonable imo.

Why is there such a stigma with C-Sections? Are they really more riskier to your health than the risks associated with vag births?

@christmastreesparklex

The answer is yes they are riskier, they are major abdominal surgery with all the risks surgery has eg infection, failure to heal, blood loss, can cause subsequent pregnancies to fail ... the rate is several times that for vaginal birth. If you need a c section for medical reasons there's no doubt they save many lives each week in Britain alone but as an elective the equation isn't simple which is why health systems are geared up for vaginal birth - if you think about it, it would be simpler for hospitals to give people hour long slots rather than 24 hours + inductions etc. They are costlier too plus take far longer to recover from even without any complications. I strongly advise seeking specialist counselling now because it can really help to put your fears into perspective, at the moment they are running away from you. I'm not claiming vaginal birth is easy but my experience is as it was straightforward, took about 6 hours in the hospital (about 3 at home prior), no drugs and with 24 hours I went shopping and was properly out and about with 72 hours when with a c section you are likely to still be in hospital (it was a 5 day stay when I had my kids for c section). Get some professional help and avoid scare stories on giving birth, remember very few people share their easy (but not super quick) birth stories as theres no interesting drama!

People might raise an eyebrow at people who request a section for non medical reasons, but that’s hardly a stigma and not unreasonable imo

I think some of the stigma, if there is any, arose from the reports of celebrities in the 90’s requesting c-sections for vanity reasons. Particularly in the US where what’s medically best isn’t a consideration if you can pay for your “healthcare”. There were rumours that sections were being done well before term before stomachs were over stretched so they could snap back to the six back, before too much weight was gained, so they could get back to the spotlight sooner. Also, as pp said, that perception of women as sexual beings, and sex appeal being vital to pop singers and the like, a CS preserves the “ladyparts” so that image isn’t ruined.

I definitely remember quite a bit of judgy undertones in the press when yet another celeb’s baby arrived early via CS.

I had an ELCS in Feb this year. As it turned out, both my twins were breach, so even if I hadn't wanted a CS, it probably would have been a CS.

I was terrified of giving birth. I even asked the consultant could I have a CS under GA. He said I could do whatever I wanted. Once the choice was in my hands, I felt much better. I met with the anesthetist to discuss options, so felt more reassured.

I didn't feel any stigma for the CS. If I had had it under GA, I would have felt a bit I was "taking the easy way out".

Recovery wise, I must have been very lucky. I read of people saying the recovery from a CS was painful. I didn't experience that - Walking normally the evening of the CS. I took it easy the next day, and felt completely fine by the third day. No issues since.

I think for me, the stigma of a C-section (had emergency one) came from my own internalising of the various 'myths' of motherhood.

Like a lot of people, I assumed that I'd push my baby out, instantly bond, breastfeed. When that didn't happen (failed induction, horrible c section, long hospital stay for baby) I started to look for reasons why- maybe the birth had been too medicalised, maybe I didn't have enough oxytocin flowing, maybe I didn't try hard enough to breastfeed blah blah.

Actually when I stand back and look at it years down the line, I can see that I'd just bought into the old myths about motherhood- that it's natural, that you suddenly fall in love, that you're instantly transformed. My method of birth probably had no bearing on my experience, but my expectations were so high, and the c section was a convenient thing to blame it on.

consent disappears when you decide to have a baby

No, no, no! This is utter rubbish! A woman NEVER concedes her consent to medical processes.

*consent disappears when you decide to have a baby

No, no, no! This is utter rubbish! A woman NEVER concedes her consent to medical processes*

Birth isn’t a medical process though. You can’t consent to puberty, or menopause, in the same way. Withdrawing your consent doesn’t make an iota of difference, your body will do it whether you brain consents or not.

Once you’re pregnant birth is not a choice. That baby is coming out regardless.

Medical intervention, such as examination, scans, induction, forceps, episiotomy, stitches, CS and anything else, are a choice and can and should be consented.

The only issue is there is also the baby to consider, and in emergency situations where a woman is distressed and in great pain, it can be difficult to fully inform her of the risks to both herself, and the baby in order to gain informed consent. Sometimes when it’s oh shit this baby will die if we don’t get it out now, the medics have to get on with it.

I didn’t want a section. I wanted a home birth. If had just been about me I would not have consented. But it was necessary to save my baby so even though it wasn’t my choice I consented.