To end the stigma of giving birth via C-Sections? Any personal experience of this?

[christmastreesparklex]

Hi all

Discussion: Birth Choice, C-Section and recent Shrewsbury Scandal

I have come across an article, that resonates with me, not only on a personal level but also knowing several of my friends and family members have suffered with.

graziadaily.co.uk/life/real-life/c-section-elective-nhs/

I apologise if there has already been similar discussions, please link me if there has been!

On a personal level, I do not yet have DC. I have been diagnosed with health anxiety and general anxiety disorder and due to the nature of anxiety, I have spent many years leading up to TTC worrying about childbirth, even researching leads me to sweaty hands/ feeling sick.. fantastic! One of my main concerns is how unpredictable childbirth can be and whilst I have not yet come to a conclusion on whether I would like to request a ELCS (I understand that this is absolutely not an easy option without (additional) risks) I feel that this choice is in a way taken away from me and I am fully aware of the difficulties other women have had requesting one without a 'fight'. This only heightens my anxiety further.

My own mother nearly died giving birth and her second birth, with me, was much smoother with an ELCS. She suffered years of PTSD with the first birth and has always said to me to consider ELCS, I admit my mother is not a midwife or a doctor so I do take it with a pinch of salt that this advice has come from her experiences.

Having this discussion with other friends/family members, who have faced similar knock backs, a friend of mine was was recently listed all the health risks of a CS by her consultant but not a natural birth. She felt made to feel guilty and almost bullied to request an ELCS, she decided to take their professional opinion and try naturally, her birth ended up being an emergency c-section, due to shoulder dystocia and she bitterly regrets not going with her gut instinct and being swayed to have a natural birth.

Why is there such a stigma with C-Sections? Are they really more riskier to your health than the risks associated with vag births?

Has anyone else faced similar? If so, what are your experiences? To those who are pregnant do you feel pressured to have a natural birth?

Do you think the Shrewsbury scandal will lead to positive changes in this respect?

FYI: I am not a journalist and I do not give my permission to publish this post on any websites, including daily mail.

Here is the thread I started back in 2017 on a similar topic, OP, in case it's off interest:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childbirth/3004152-Interesting-article-about-the-damaging-concept-of-normal-birth-being-better-than-one-that-requires-intervention

I’ve had a vaginal birth and an EMCS. I’ve never felt any stigma about it. The EMCS saved our lives, so I’ve always thought that was a nice thing. I found the recovery from vaginal birth much easier though, so if all else was equal I would choose that.

I don't have any personal experience of having one, but I wanted to say that in contacts I had with healthcare professionals during my pregnancy last year, quite a few of them referred to 'Caesarian births' rather than sections. One midwife explained that they're trying to change their language to recognise that a woman who has had a caesarian has given birth just as much as one who gave birth vaginally. I hope this means that awareness and acceptance of the importance of caesarian births, and maternal feelings, and maternal choice, is starting to permeate.

I had a maternal request csection. I was terrified at the idea of natural birth and the use of forceps especially. I was very open about it and I had mixed responses. Noone was rude to me, although some colleagues expressed surprise that I wanted to elect for major surgery when 'our bodies are designed for childbirth.' I just said I'd rather have stitches in my abdomen than in my vagina and most people agreed. It did go deeper than this, but that was my response to anyone who said they thought natural birth would be easier.

It was what was best for me at the end of the day. I know some friends who had emergency csections who felt they failed. Personally, I think a live birth with healthy mother and child is all that matters 🤷

Is there really such a stigma around CSs?I had an EMCS, no one made any comment at all about how the baby arrived, in fact I don't think I really needed to mention it much . It's not really a topic for conversation is it? I do think far too much personal information is shared unnecessarily these days. I certainly didn't feel any guilt, I'd actually asked for an ELCS and had been refused so was very pleased to end up with the EMCS - although the NHS could have avoided the expense by agreeing to the ELCS in the first place (this was some time ago).

I had an ECS with my second after 3rd degree tear and episiotomy with my first - I healed well and wasn't prepared to accept the risks on future continence with a further 'natural birth.

I was very specific and demanding as to what I wanted and did research to back it up if required - luckily I was only lightly pushed to consider vaginally and got my section without too much effort.

What annoys me is that they give you the benefits of vaginally (none of the negatives) and the negatives of sections (none of the positives) - it felt like heads i win, tails you lose. My personal conclusion is that its money driven as a section is more expensive than a 'straight forward' natural birth.

Oh, and the other thing they don't tell you is dependencies on other criteria impacting risk factors such as age ie the older you are the more likely you are to have intervention

I think my recovery time for both was about the same although its been harder to lose the weight this time but I am older and was sterilised at the same time - and thats another thing that should be looked at when having a section but is rarely mentioned

I had a vaginal delivery, followed by a CS due to breech. When it came to my third the consultant said 'I'd prefer you to have a VBAC'. She presented all the negatives of a CS and all the positives of a VBAC. I said I'd think about it. I weighed up the risks and decided on an ELCS and was ready to insist. When it came to it my body helped by giving me a complete placenta previa so the choice was made anyway. They do try to sway you away from sections though.

I wish I'd taken the offer from the consultant at 16 weeks to book a C-section when I had the chance. I have severe Tokophobia arising from sexual abuse in childhood but was persuaded to try counselling and hypnobirthing instead so I could have a vaginal birth. I spent the whole pregnancy living in fear of the birth.

After a nightmare pregnancy of hyperemesis and reduced movements I was induced at 39 weeks. It didn't work and by the end of 3 days I was sleep deprived and terribly sore from multiple examinations and sweeps, as well as being massively triggered from the continual touching (the midwives were very kind and it was totally not their fault).

On day 4, I'd been told I could have a C-section so had been nil by mouth for 19 hours, absolutely starving and weak when a different consultant came round and tried to persuade me to have another induction. I've never cried tears like it. Only after I totally broke down and told them no-one else was putting their hands inside me or I was going home did they agree to the C-section the next day. And give me some food and water.

I love my DD dearly and I'm so glad I have her but it was so traumatising I'm not sure I could have another baby. The C-section recovery was nothing compared to what led up to it.

Sorry forgot to say- I think the medical profession and general attitudes to C-sections are absolutely prejudiced and misogynistic. I think that's why I was repeatedly persuaded not to have one, in spite of my history.

@CabinClose

I’ve had a vaginal birth and an EMCS. I’ve never felt any stigma about it. The EMCS saved our lives, so I’ve always thought that was a nice thing. I found the recovery from vaginal birth much easier though, so if all else was equal I would choose that.

Same. DD had to be born by EMCS, it wasn't a choice, so I really appreciate it, and the actual birth was certainly easier (mine was under general so I was totally unaware of it).

I personally found the recovery far harder though.

I don't understand why the method of birth matters, why it attracts so much judgement, you need to do what's right for the particular circumstances - both for mother and baby. One isn't better than the other, just different.

Oh and the other thing that super annoys me is that the risks / statistics quoted combines emergency and elective therefore making elective look much riskier - to give a true picture these should be separated. I think some people further upthread have stated there's a higher risk of babies dying but this isn't for an elective - emergency c sections by their nature are going to have more risks

@DemolitionBarbie

The blunt truth is that CS has a higher rate of babies dying and higher risks through infection etc because it's major surgery.

I'd be horrified if the UK started having really high elective rates. There are always some women who need CS but the general message should be that natural birth is safer.

I speak as someone who has had both CS and vaginal birth. Give me vaginal birth anyway, the squeezing the baby out bit was horrendous but the CS recovery was much worse.

But that's a causation/correlation issue. The fact that more babies die during c sections etc could be because the births are complicated anyway. Not because of the c section itself.

I think there is more stigma attached to elective caesarean births - there shouldn’t be, but I think there is. The fact that people think that open abdominal surgery while conscious (and with absolutely zero follow up other than a couple of wound checks) is an easy option is utterly ridiculous, and goes to show the general attitude towards vaginal birth, but many do think this.

I think EMCS is generally seen as a necessity, but know plenty of mothers who feel like they “failed” because one was needed, and this can be backed up by some attitudes. I once had a woman in a breastfeeding group tell me that I wouldn’t have needed a caesarean and that I wouldn’t be needing to exclusively pump if I trusted my body more - apparently my failings on both counts were psychosomatic and due to my believing I couldn’t do things. The fact that people think like this, when I had explained that one of my babies had stopped moving and needed to be resuscitated at birth, gives you an idea of what some people believe about birth.

My experience of consultants and doctors both when pregnant and since working in maternity is that their views differ greatly and often due to cases they have worked on. If they’ve lost mothers / babies during c sections they’ll try to talk you out of them, and vice versa for inductions and natural birth. My GP said to me halfway through my pregnancy when I asked him honestly that if I were his wife he’d be supporting me in insisting on a caesarean and would recommend this to anyone having twins a I can only assume from the strength of his reaction that he’d been involved in a traumatic case. I’ve seen the same with consultants who seem to go out of their way to coerce women into a one course of action. I imagine that being involved in cases that go tragically wrong must have an impact on their personal views which I can understand.

I wasn’t aware of any stigma around c-sections, and I’ve had three. One emergency, two planned, and the last one was the best - I could watch what was happening and the baby was delivered to my breast.

I would caution that hat CS can have many ongoing complications internally, and if I’d known at the start I might have made some different choices.

I've had two emergency sections, one horrendous and one amazing. I definitely felt like a failure and that I hadn't given birth with my first, not helped by certain staff members. My second was meant to be an elective but dc2 came early and whilst I was arguing for the section I'd been promised decided to tangle up in the cord getting distressed. The midwife who came out to the house afterwards saw "emcs" on my notes and told me how sorry she was for me. Dc2 and I were absolutely fine.

Certainly I feel that all my issues with emcs number 1 arose as a consequence of attempted vaginal birth and should be listed under that. I passed out on the operating table after hallucinating but I doubt that would have happened if I hadn't been exhausted, dehydrated and feverish having been in labour for 75 hours with my waters having gone even earlier. Ds ended up in Nicu again as a result of that attempted vaginal birth. Interestingly all the Nicu drs who cared for dc1 who had children that I spoke to all elected for c-sections themselves.

I've been very lucky with my physical recoveries, no need for pain relief post theatre, capable of looking after my dc by myself (lucky that given the state of postnatal) and I think that fed into my negative feelings.

This conversation highlights the autonomy that they have in different hospitals.
In Salisbury a few years ago: The baby would not turn so they decided on C section quite realistically, as no big deal.
Consultant explained they would do it early so as not to risk starting labour, he said "What are you doing next Tuesday Mrs X?"
All went OK.
Vag next time though, few probs, he was a big lump of a boy.
Some hospitals are forgetting the overall aims:- Healthy baby and healthy mother.

EMCS for my first followed by an elective 2 years later. Was actually quite grateful for my first section as had got to 9cm after a long labour, baby in distress and they were discussing forceps. I signed consent forms for both forceps and the EMCS, was pretty out of it by this time, not really in any fit state to put up an argument and was so relieved they went for the caesarean in the end. The recovery was hardgoing for the first week afterwards but that was mostly due to the exhaustion and infection from the long labour rather than the section itself. Never felt any stigma at all (apart from on an unrelated post on mumsnet regarding my second pregnancy!!) I think those who have commented on people viewing childbirth as a spiritual experience have hit the nail on the head, it's not. It's dangerous and messy and a means to an end. I wonder if being a historian helps? Childbirth has killed huge numbers of women throughout history. I have no doubt that if my first birth had been somewhere else or even just a few generations ago I wouldn't be here. As it was the worst that happened was a few days on an antibiotic drip and a few weeks on painkillers. I consider myself pretty lucky. The elective wasa no brainer. Scared beforehand but recovery so much easier and the main thing for me after first experience was that at no point during was I worried that I'd be going home without a baby.

@Piwlyfbicsly I am horrified that women have said those things to you. I hate this idea (and it’s always said about birth and breastfeeding, and not much else) that “success” is all about planning and preparation and trying hard enough

I can only assume that those who denigrate c sections as “not real births” are actually jealous that you avoided the agony, trauma and horror of a vaginal delivery. I literally can’t think of any other reason why they’d want to put you down like that.

I remember, in the weeks after giving birth to my first child, thinking “wow, I was duped”. I was totally sucked in by all the stuff about birth being amazing and beautiful and empowering. I had a water birth in a midwife led unit and tore all the way down to my sphincter. The recovery was horrific. I lay in recovery after coming back from theatre and knew immediately that I was never going to do that again. I felt so foolish for believing everything I’d been told about the wonder of natural, drug free birth.

@CCSS15 Sounds like we had very similar experiences. I remember going to see the consultant armed with RCOG guidelines around birth after third degree tear. I said I was not going to risk my continence by having a vaginal birth. All the consultant said was “you won’t tear again” (wanna bet?) and “we can always do an episiotomy” (no you’re bloody not). And, like you said, they give such an unbalanced view of things: all of the benefits of vaginal births (none of the negatives) and all of the negatives of a c section (none of the positives). But I was adamant and was able to utilise my previous experience of trauma and PND to get what I needed. In fact the consultant made a point that this would be a section on mental health grounds, not physical health 😳

Meh, I had an emergency c section. I had no idea there is a stigma, never heard of such a thing so I’d assume it’s the minority, you gotta do what you gotta do. Anyone who judges another women for how she has to give birth is a proper arsehole.

You don’t need to give consent for a vaginal birth. You do need to give consent for a c-section, as with every other type of surgery. Consent must be informed, and the consultant therefore has a legal and ethical obligation to inform you of the risks. It would be medically negligent to do otherwise.

It’s not about ‘only listing the negatives’, it’s the normal, legally required process that accompanies ALL surgery.

I had an ELCS with my second after a traumatic forceps delivery with my first. I have to say that all the HCPs were supportive of my choice. They had to make sure I understood the risks but supported my decision to choose.

However an acquaintance commented afterwards something along the lines of “how sad you didn’t get to give birth properly either time”. Even though I feel no shame about either birth, that stung.

The issue is bias, and balance @trixiebelden77

Of course we need to be informed of the risks. But vaginal birth isn’t risk free and yet those risks are never acknowledged. It’s almost like birth injuries and future gynae issues (prolapses etc) are simply seen as the price you pay to have children.

I personally felt more of a failure over the shit show of a vaginal birth I had rather than the ELCS. My first was a 4 day ordeal of back to back labour episiotomy shoulder dystocia and a postpartum haemorrhage. Baby needed resuscitation and I spent 8 days in hospital needing various medications and antibiotics as i developed sepsis. I felt like such a failure not being able to it ‘properly’. I had significant PND and anxiety following this that took a lot of medication and therapy. We have had a 2nd child 4 years later but I had a lot of support through pregnancy and an ELCS which felt very empowering and I felt in control. My issues with childbirth and many aspects of parenting is that it is now an ‘experience’ or a ‘journey’. I didn’t give a hoot about my ‘experience’ I wanted an outcome: mum and baby alive and well.
We have unfortunately quickly forgotten that without medical intervention and research progressing midwifery techniques and monitoring there was a mortality rate of up to 1/10 for mother and baby throughout history. It has taken 100s of years of medicine and science to get us to that point for people to quickly forget and decided that nature always works and birthing is intuitive. You can bet if it was men going through it the ELCS rate would be much higher and they would all get a massive pat on the back for enduring major surgery.

I knew a decade before getting pregnant that DC will exit via the sunroof. Without elective C-section, said DC would still be in utero, albeit a tween. It was that or I would have taken nail scissors to my abdomen.
There's absolutely nothing wrong, hah, the very thought, with elective C-section, a gift of medicine to women everywhere.
If you believe yourself superior by the simple fact that you squeezed DC out via your fanny, well, do. I couldn't care less.
Ridiculous subject.