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Why is everyone referring to "Santa"

795 replies

WinWinnieTheWay · 08/12/2020 20:30

DH and I (from different UK countries and different social class) were both brought up with Father Christmas. Why are so many people calling FC "Santa" these days? Is it just the impact of American culture? Each to their own, but I don't like it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Dovesandkisses · 10/12/2020 08:01

Father Christmas here, but it is definitely a regional rather than class thing. 🙄

CardinalCat · 10/12/2020 08:04

Thread delivers, as it does every bleeding year. Grin

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 10/12/2020 08:08

That’s is. I’m going to start calling the fat red man ‘Dave’. It’s only a matter of time before they decide he has to go on a diet and slim down...

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

CheetasOnFajitas · 10/12/2020 09:40

@Goldenbear

What's 'Magpie', I think it may have been before my time?
Magpie was ITV’s answer to Blue Peter.
Deadringer · 10/12/2020 09:46

Father Christmas here ooooh i thought for a minute the big man himself was posting to let us know his preferred name 🤣

andawaywego · 10/12/2020 09:52

I'm watching Peppa Pig and they call him Father Christmas. Santa it is then. PP is too posh for me.

Goldenbear · 10/12/2020 10:07

CheetasOnFajitas, I see, we didn't watch much ITV- wasn't keen on Blue Peter either!

CheetasOnFajitas · 10/12/2020 10:21

Just to elaborate a bit, as I am the poster who said that, to me, people who say “Fathah Christmas” are the ones who have nurseries and eat “suppah”.

It was a light-hearted comment, in no way intended to denigrate people who meet that description. What I was trying to convey was that saying FC not Santa was very removed from my own experience growing up in a lower middle class home in Scotland. (Protestant, by the way- I don’t buy the Catholic/Protestant distinction suggested up thread).

What I didn’t mention in my lighthearted comment was that as I child I devoured every Enid Blyton book going, watched Mary Poppins and the Sound of Music hundreds of times and worshipped Julie Andrews (still do!). The “nursery and suppah” culture where children talked about “Fathah Christmas” was not at all negative to me, just very different. It occupied a sort of fantasy land from books and TV. (As were Grange Hill and Corrie- it wasn’t only the posh English who seemed foreign!)

As I think I mentioned in another post, my husband was brought up to say Father Christmas and my MIL (West Country born and bred but upper middle class) definitely found my “Santa” to be a marker of lack of refinement. What is funny is that MIL and my own late Mum are quite similar in their world views, but “Santa” carried no such connotation for my own mother. (She had plenty of other class markers to look down upon instead, for example her abhorrence of the Scottish habit of saying “juice” to mean all cold drinks including fizzy ones). So I could sort of see where she was coming from when she told my DS that “we say Fathah Christmas”. I corrected it to “Granny calls Santa Father Christmas” and we are all happy now (DH couldn’t care less and it’s actually quite sweet to see him correct himself to Santa when he starts to say FC out of habit).

Finally, going back to the OP, I do actually agree with the notion that many kids in England have picked up Santa because of American culture (not recently though, it’s been going on for decades!). What rankled for so many people was OP’s seeming complete ignorance of the fact that “Santa” was the name used almost exclusively in huge areas of the U.K., dating back to from before American culture really took hold.

If it had just said “I know Santa is traditional elsewhere in the U.K. but where DH and I grew up most kids said “Father Christmas” that seems to be dying out now I think that more and more people are saying “Santa”. I wonder why that is- could it be American culture?” then things might not have kicked off so spectacularly.

FatherSantaChristmas · 10/12/2020 13:19

@Deadringer

Father Christmas here ooooh i thought for a minute the big man himself was posting to let us know his preferred name 🤣
Did I hear my ears burning

Call me what the bloody hell you like I answer to many names

St Nicholas
Papa Noël
Papai Noel
Noel Baba
Little Christmas man
Christ kinder
Grandfather frost
Babbo Natale

I don’t really care

Thread done

Hopefully one year we won’t have to discuss my name!

Till then 🎅

Peppafrig · 10/12/2020 16:35

@FatherSantaChristmas Hi Santa Merry Christmas

CheetasOnFajitas · 11/12/2020 10:02

I don’t think many people are still reading but I thought I’d throw in another observation- people have mentioned that “Santa” is easier to say for children. I was mulling this over and realised that it is also easier to say than “Father Christmas” for anyone who is a rhotic speaker ie someone who pronounces the “r” sound at the end of a word. Most Scots are rhotic speakers.

So for those who pronounce “Father” as “Fathah”, it combines easily with the hard “ch” sound of “Christmas”. Fathahkrissmus

Whereas if you are interposing a rolled “r” it’s a bit trickier. Fathurkismmus. You have to pause between the r and the k sounds to say them both properly.

Santa Claus has the easier “ak” conjunction between the two words for rhotic speakers too, or of course you have the option of just shortening to Santa and avoiding the issue altogether.

That’s my linguistic theory about why “Father Christmas” never caught in in Scotland.

EleanorOalike · 11/12/2020 10:24

@CheetasOnFajitas

I don’t think many people are still reading but I thought I’d throw in another observation- people have mentioned that “Santa” is easier to say for children. I was mulling this over and realised that it is also easier to say than “Father Christmas” for anyone who is a rhotic speaker ie someone who pronounces the “r” sound at the end of a word. Most Scots are rhotic speakers.

So for those who pronounce “Father” as “Fathah”, it combines easily with the hard “ch” sound of “Christmas”. Fathahkrissmus

Whereas if you are interposing a rolled “r” it’s a bit trickier. Fathurkismmus. You have to pause between the r and the k sounds to say them both properly.

Santa Claus has the easier “ak” conjunction between the two words for rhotic speakers too, or of course you have the option of just shortening to Santa and avoiding the issue altogether.

That’s my linguistic theory about why “Father Christmas” never caught in in Scotland.

Some good points here.

I also thought Santa wasn’t an “American Invention” but that he predated Father Christmas by centuries due to the Santa (Saint) Claus (Nicholas) historic association. Some parts of Scotland are closer to Scandinavia than England so it also makes sense that some of our dialect would follow there rather than Southern England/London. I was surprised upon visiting Sweden that much of our slang and some of our language was the same - it was quite surreal actually!

In the Scots accent I grew up with it would have sounded like Fay-therrr (rhotic r’s) K-uh-rrrr-usss-musss which sounds horrendous! As it is Suh-nuh (Santa in the local dialect) sounds bad enough but is much easier to say. I’ll admit as a Catholic child, from a small Scot’s village which was historically very religious and sectarian, at one point I did say in a “posh Edinburgh voice” after starting private school with a bunch of English kids and an English teacher - “Fahhhther Christmas” and swiftly got a smack round the head and told that was a “Protestant thing to say. Don’t ever let me hear you say that again. It’s good old Saint Nick, Santa Claus, for us” Blush. The two generations before me (I’m mid 30s) in the village had a lot of tensions, with the poorer Catholic community being denied jobs due to their Irish Catholic surnames and their religion, young Catholics being forced to the bottom of the council housing list by a prejudiced local woman, big distinctions between if you went the the “Chapel” (Catholic) or the “Kyrk” (Protestant), being called little Fenians from a young age on the way to school etc so tiny things like this mattered on quite a serious level even though with the distance of time I can see it was harmlessly. My mother wasn’t allowed to marry her first love due to him being Church of Scotland (non practising) and her family being devout Catholics. So for a very minute section of society the argument raised earlier on about Santa being a more Catholic term and Father Christmas being a more Protestant one actually does apply, or did even in the 90s in very religious parts of the U.K. I suspect it’s a tiny, tiny minority of people who’d even know this though.

ErrolTheDragon · 11/12/2020 11:41

So for those who pronounce “Father” as “Fathah”, it combines easily with the hard “ch” sound of “Christmas”. Fathahkrissmus

And even moreso with most English accents which really don't pronounce father as 'fathah' ... not sure how to transliterate but the last syllable is very unstressed. 'Fathuh' might be closer.

('fathah' to a non-rhotic speaker looks rather affected and 'far back'. I realised after being Hmm about it it that you probably didn't intend that. )

CheetasOnFajitas · 11/12/2020 11:46

That’s fascinating @EleanorOalike.

Your comment

I was surprised upon visiting Sweden that much of our slang and some of our language was the same - it was quite surreal actually!

resonated with me because my DH is half Norwegian and I have had exactly the same experience with visiting his side of the family. The one that makes me laugh is that they say “Mor” for Mother/Mum but not with a strong “r” at the end so it sounds just like “Maw” as in Maw Broon.

Another thing which is just comedy coincidence not dialect is that there Norwegian for “everyone” is “alle sammen” so it sounded like hey were talking about Alex Salmond all the time Grin

17days · 11/12/2020 11:51

Getting annoyed by the words people use for things is such a waste of time. It's prevalent on mumsnet for some reason. Languages evolve over time, it's a natural process, what's the point of getting annoyed by it? Who really gives a shit if someone says Santa and someone else says Father Christmas? Move on.

CheetasOnFajitas · 11/12/2020 11:55

@ErrolTheDragon

So for those who pronounce “Father” as “Fathah”, it combines easily with the hard “ch” sound of “Christmas”. Fathahkrissmus

And even moreso with most English accents which really don't pronounce father as 'fathah' ... not sure how to transliterate but the last syllable is very unstressed. 'Fathuh' might be closer.

('fathah' to a non-rhotic speaker looks rather affected and 'far back'. I realised after being Hmm about it it that you probably didn't intend that. )

I was just trying my best in the absence of being able to use phonetic symbols @ErrolTheDragon (which I do actually know from studying linguistic as part of my degree many moons ago). It was more about conveying that the “r” is not rolled than any attempt to replicate the vowel sound.

As you will know from countless threads on here on other subjects, non-rhotic speakers chuck in “r” s left right and centre to convey a particular vowel sound in writing- a notable recent thread about the pronounciation of “banal” had people writing “banarl” left right and centre and pissing off rhotic speakers. I was not thinking about the vowel here though.

CheetasOnFajitas · 11/12/2020 12:04

Oh and also @ErrolTheDragon, in my accent all the “a”s are short so “uh” and “ah” to me not much difference!

ErrolTheDragon · 11/12/2020 12:24

Someone who has their supper in the nursery is likely to have long vowels though.Grin

EleanorOalike · 11/12/2020 12:26

@CheetasOnFajitas

That’s fascinating *@EleanorOalike*.

Your comment

I was surprised upon visiting Sweden that much of our slang and some of our language was the same - it was quite surreal actually!

resonated with me because my DH is half Norwegian and I have had exactly the same experience with visiting his side of the family. The one that makes me laugh is that they say “Mor” for Mother/Mum but not with a strong “r” at the end so it sounds just like “Maw” as in Maw Broon.

Another thing which is just comedy coincidence not dialect is that there Norwegian for “everyone” is “alle sammen” so it sounded like hey were talking about Alex Salmond all the time Grin

Grin it was hearing “Braw” all the time for “great”/“good” that got me haha!
ancientgran · 11/12/2020 12:29

I'm nearly 70 and he's always been Santa Claus to me.

EscapedfromGN · 11/12/2020 14:44

I though this might be a little light hearted thread but it's been hard work ploughing through it.

Here's my penny worth.

Grew up in the lovely English east midlands, not posh or a snob. Proud of the local accent. Only ever commented on by the grarss, barth, parth brigade. Sometimes just in a friendly inquiring way sometimes to take the piss.

I've always called him Father Christmas and still do. Santa was who lived in a grotto at the scout Christmas Fayre. You queued up and got a little cheap tacky little gift.

My own DC called him FC but Santa was used too. The DGC call him Santa but know it's really FC. Both used equally.

Never heard anyone call him Santi and I always connected Santa Claus with songs. The Little Boy That Santa Claus Forgot. I saw Mummy Kissing Santa Claus. Bloody awful songs.

EleanorOalike · 11/12/2020 17:26

“Santi” or “Santy” is a definite Irish thing! All my relatives in ROI call him Santy.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 11/12/2020 17:36

And Scottish (well west coast anyway). Nothing cuter than a small child pondering aloud what Santy clau’s is bringin’

EleanorOalike · 11/12/2020 17:57

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

And Scottish (well west coast anyway). Nothing cuter than a small child pondering aloud what Santy clau’s is bringin’
Now that’s something I’d didn’t know! I’m over in the East!
Dadaist · 11/12/2020 19:50

The popular culture figure ‘Santa’ is American - I think because he’s not ‘Santa Clause’ aka ‘St Nicolas’. And obvs it’s not ‘Father Christmas’ due to the name change. St Nicolas was an actual saint. ‘Santa’ takes the first (Latin) name of Santa Clause (St Nicolas) combined with a mythical figure - more commonly known in England as ‘Father Christmas’ who lives in the North Pole and drives a flying herd of reindeer.

So while Santa Claus is European Catholic (inc Ireland and parts of west Scotland)...’Santa’ is definitely an American popular culture introduced as a hybrid of St Nicolas (Santa Claus) and Father Christmas.
What people refer to in their families depends on their family history- catholic - more likely to say Santa Claus - only shortened to ‘Santa’. But once he’s living with elves in the North Pole - he’s not St Nicolas - he’s Santa!

If you’re Protestant UK (England, predominantly) you’re more likely to say Father Christmas- avoiding association with catholic St Nicolas, but still a nod to our pagan past.

I always understood that Father Christmas lives in Lapland - which makes more sense because the North Pole is inhospitable and there aren’t any reindeer there - but not so Lapland.
I think I’ve fixed it?