Why is everyone referring to "Santa"

[WinWinnieTheWay]

DH and I (from different UK countries and different social class) were both brought up with Father Christmas. Why are so many people calling FC "Santa" these days? Is it just the impact of American culture? Each to their own, but I don't like it.

MeringueCloud

<span class="italic">The word Santa is probably becoming more popular because of the influence of modern American culture.</span>

Have you ever heard of Northern Ireland? Scotland? Ireland?

Lots of people from those places live in England...

@Goldenbear

ProudAuntie76, Trevor McDonald grew up in Trinidad and don't think he had a particularly privileged upbringing so this kind of proves my point you have not been able to identify where he is from because his accent is neutral.

Also you are quick to use the lazy 'London centric' stereotype to deride a city of people whose population is greater than the whole of Scotland for example so I'm not sure if you can make such sweeping generalisations about what people think in London. In PP you said that you refer to Santa because you are a Christian and Father Christmas is just 'No'. You do realise that many people of different religions in the UK are not Christian but still celebrate or mark Christmas. My husband is culturally Jewish but still celebrates Christmas and this will blow your mind he as non Christian refers to Father Christmas. Try to imagine people do live different lives to your own and it is not an affront to you and your traditions!

Wow. Thank you for the completely unnecessary and derogatory schooling.

I know Trevor McDonald is from Trinidad, thank you. He’s a hero of mine, given, like me he is Black and we didn’t see many black faces on TV growing up. He also has an RP accent. Which isn’t neutral.

I responded to the OP who had an issue with the fact that some of us do not say Father Christmas and asked when FC became SC. Based on my faith, I associate Santa Claus with St Nicholas and I refuse to be made to say Father Christmas because it makes someone else feel less irritated. I didn’t say no one should use the term Father Christmas, unlike many on this thread who have said precisely that about the term Santa Claus.

And please do not dare to lecture me on other faiths, cultures and the fact they also celebrate Christmas...you have zero idea of my background, the organisations I’m involved with and the fact that I’m not as narrow minded or uneducated as you have clearly decided based merely on the facts thatI am not based in London and that I’m Christian. I’m a very inclusive, multi cultural person who values people from all walks of life, all creeds, colours and cultures. You’ve invented a whole nasty little story in your mind about me which exists precisely there. In your head only, based on the fact that I disagree with the fact that there is such a thing as no accent/neutral accent.

You’ve laboured and laboured a point that no one else on this thread agrees with. Stop launching personal attacks on people who disagree with you.

I’d agree with a PP the “strong” accent comment is usually bandied about by people who are London centric and dislike regional accents in general. Meanwhile, those of us in the regions quite often think it’s them who have strong, grating accents

Hahaha sorry, so your saying Londoners hate regional accents and strong accents?!
The reason I’m laughing is because you realise that one of the strongest best known most identifiable and indeed one of the accents that most people who have it have the most pride in it it’s almost a badge of honour is a from an area of London? Cockney!

Honestly you really can’t say that people in London and London centric people don’t like regional accents as the London accent is a regional accent in its self and cockney definately is!

The majority of people in London do not sound like Emma Thompson, Trevor McDonald (is he really RP Because I can certainly detect a Trinidadian accent in there) and the others, in fact the majority of people in London speak with the London regional accent and cockney (and yes I’m making a difference between London and cockney as cockney is quite specific)

While I’ll perhaps agree with math and reigns that RP isn’t neutral in that you very much identify that it’s an English accent. Therefore geographic.

I think your possiably right that the media, in their presentation of accents are bias towards RP, but.using the lazy London centric line is as bad and snobbish as your accusing the southerners as being.

I speak a fairly “neutral” accent in that it’s very much not RP, however 99% of the time you wouldn’t be able to identify where in England I was from other than it was England, but that’s because I’ve got a variety of accents from adults around me in my formative years (Irish/Essex/Welsh/brummie/Black Country and no brummie and Black Country are very much not the same) and then I’ve spent my childhood not really being in an area very long, gradually moving further in to the West Country, while 99% of the time, if you know me or I’m tired/drunk/just comfortable and can’t be bothered to hide my accent, you will very much get a West Country accent

So much so that one of my friends who was living in Bristol at the time was shocked about how West Country I was.

My point is even behind that RP/neutral accent you can often find a geographic regional accent.

@RizzleDrizzle

I’d agree with a PP the “strong” accent comment is usually bandied about by people who are London centric and dislike regional accents in general. Meanwhile, those of us in the regions quite often think it’s them who have strong, grating accents

Hahaha sorry, so your saying Londoners hate regional accents and strong accents?!
The reason I’m laughing is because you realise that one of the strongest best known most identifiable and indeed one of the accents that most people who have it have the most pride in it it’s almost a badge of honour is a from an area of London? Cockney!

Honestly you really can’t say that people in London and London centric people don’t like regional accents as the London accent is a regional accent in its self and cockney definately is!

The majority of people in London do not sound like Emma Thompson, Trevor McDonald (is he really RP Because I can certainly detect a Trinidadian accent in there) and the others, in fact the majority of people in London speak with the London regional accent and cockney (and yes I’m making a difference between London and cockney as cockney is quite specific)

While I’ll perhaps agree with math and reigns that RP isn’t neutral in that you very much identify that it’s an English accent. Therefore geographic.

I think your possiably right that the media, in their presentation of accents are bias towards RP, but.using the lazy London centric line is as bad and snobbish as your accusing the southerners as being.

I speak a fairly “neutral” accent in that it’s very much not RP, however 99% of the time you wouldn’t be able to identify where in England I was from other than it was England, but that’s because I’ve got a variety of accents from adults around me in my formative years (Irish/Essex/Welsh/brummie/Black Country and no brummie and Black Country are very much not the same) and then I’ve spent my childhood not really being in an area very long, gradually moving further in to the West Country, while 99% of the time, if you know me or I’m tired/drunk/just comfortable and can’t be bothered to hide my accent, you will very much get a West Country accent

So much so that one of my friends who was living in Bristol at the time was shocked about how West Country I was.

My point is even behind that RP/neutral accent you can often find a geographic regional accent.

No. I’m saying some London or Southern CENTRIC people can’t bear any accent that isn’t RP. Regional accents, to me, includes Cockney/Estuary. I know I’ll be accused of drip feeding but I lived in London for 5 years while doing my nursing training/degree. I met plenty of people in the hospitals I worked in who couldn’t bear the fact their children were developing cockney or estuary accents and who frequently commented that they “couldn’t understand a word” Scottish/Irish/Sunderland/Yorkshire etc people were saying. These were the same colleagues who couldn’t for a second understand why I moved back home after five years, genuinely believing that we were all poor with a low quality of life.

Are you saying that absolutely no one is London centric?

No I’m saying your confusing the media snobbishly middle class bias towards RP and lack of accent, (even though there’s really no thing as neutral or lack of accent) as London centric. Home countries centric possiably, but again I doubt that every one in the Home Counties is a twat either!

Also you can’t have a go at some one for generalising when you generalised yourself!

Also estuary and cockney are not the only London accents!

My point is by generalising and being snobbish you are making your self look as aggressive, snobbish and twattish as those your accusing of being London centric.

Yep Home Counties London snobs are aggressive twats, but you don’t conquer that by being as rude as them

Personal attacks, just as you did to me really, as you derided my argument about neutral accents, then harped on about people being 'London centric' in the same breath, the insuation being that I am of that thinking and can't imagine a world outside of London. Actually, I have varied heritage, even some Scandinavian thrown in so I don't have this world view that is limited to London. I don't even live in London! My children have Irish heritage via their Dad and an Irish surname as do I if I choose to use it so why would I not think highly of a world outside of London. I would basically be putting my own children down.

You very much did strongly proclaim the wrongness of the name Father Christmas and referred to him not being the Father of Christ etc. So the name was not fitting at all!

@RizzleDrizzle

No I’m saying your confusing the media snobbishly middle class bias towards RP and lack of accent, (even though there’s really no thing as neutral or lack of accent) as London centric. Home countries centric possiably, but again I doubt that every one in the Home Counties is a twat either!

Also you can’t have a go at some one for generalising when you generalised yourself!

Also estuary and cockney are not the only London accents!

Where did I say they are the only two London accents? I mentioned them as the ones which to my hearing were amongst the strongest and most frequent that I came across and which a few of the consultants and senior staff had disdain for.

I never said anyone was a twat.

I said in my experience, somepeople are London or Southern Centric and that those same people, in my experience, tend to dislike all regional accents and assume that RP is the only acceptable way of speaking.

@Goldenbear

Personal attacks, just as you did to me really, as you derided my argument about neutral accents, then harped on about people being 'London centric' in the same breath, the insuation being that I am of that thinking and can't imagine a world outside of London. Actually, I have varied heritage, even some Scandinavian thrown in so I don't have this world view that is limited to London. I don't even live in London! My children have Irish heritage via their Dad and an Irish surname as do I if I choose to use it so why would I not think highly of a world outside of London. I would basically be putting my own children down.

You very much did strongly proclaim the wrongness of the name Father Christmas and referred to him not being the Father of Christ etc. So the name was not fitting at all!

In the same breath?

Do you mean in a totally different paragraph and picking up on another poster’s point?

Where did I say “Goldenbear, you are London centric!”? or say “your world view is completely limited to London”?

No. I did not “proclaim the wrongness of Father Christmas” (talk about hyperbole!).

I said I’m Christian, I use Santa Claus to refer to St Nicholas. I won’t say Father Christmas personally because to me he’s invented and actually the term doesn’t have its roots in my faith. I don’t for a second believe “Father Christmas” is wrong but it’s not what I say and I won’t use the term personally as I do not relate to it. It doesn’t make me a xenophobe. I never said the name wasn’t fitting at all.

I’m done arguing with you. You don’t like the fact that the majority of people on this thread disagreed with your earlier points so chose me to attack very personally because I have a belief that you find as equally irrational as I find yours on the non-existence or neutrality of one certain accent, that some people who frequently complain about regional accents are London/Southern centric and find RP only acceptable accent.

Anyway have a merry Christmas and a nice life etc

OMFG, how did this descend into this??

Can i pass everyone a sherry and mince pie and a dollop of christmas cheer?

Peace to all men etc etc

No @ProudAuntie76 twats is my word,
Why do you have a problem with people having opinions.

I agree to an extent, that yes there are people that think their brilliant by declaring they don’t understand a word said in an accent - why do you think my accent is so geographically neutral other than English most of the time? Because I’ve heard that so so many times, but your highlighting some now since I challenged you. You generalised and made it look like all!

Also I would actually say that type of attitude is very much not limited to the Home Counties and London.

Like I say my accent is now fairly geographically neutral unless I’m tired/drunk/relaxed because I had years of sorry what?!?! When I started school my accent was far more Irish (Irish grandparents Irish Essex accent coming from my parents) even in Birmingham (a city with a high Irish population) I was the kid with the funny accent no one understood so guess what I did? I did everything to change it, then when I moved to Worcestershire I was the kid with the brummie accent no one understood and they’d go round speaking in a stereotypical accent and asking if I understood cos they didn’t understand me. So again I did everything to change it to fit in. I moved to Herefordshire when I was 10 so picked up that accent (again different to Worcestershire) had a little bit not so much of the haha your accent is so unuderstandable now live even more in to the West Country so my accent when relaxed is idenfiably West Country, but I’ve definately come across accent hate in places that aren’t London or the Home Counties.

In fact the hate a piss taken out of my parents London accent in Birmingham is unbelievable

The name Santa goes better in a lot of the main Christmas songs, Father Christmas would just sound wrong. !

I was christened as well but in an Anglican church, I still use Father Christmas. Why would using Santa make you a xenophobe? I am actually not disagreeing with people who use 'Santa', I don't really care but I was trying to explain that FC is not about social climbing.

@RizzleDrizzle, I lived in Devon for a while and I would often get people who would kid on they couldn’t understand my accent. They would say it in a really patronising way. If I dared ask them to repeat something they would shout and slow down their speech and speak broken English to me like I was some simple foreigner...I’m Scottish!
So it’s not only a London centric thing to do with not speaking RP, some people just don’t like outsiders and see their way as automatically being correct.

Disclaimer; it was of course not all people from Devon I met some fantastic people from down that way, but this is the only place I’ve personally experienced this.

I was brought up with Father Christmas, my grandparents say Father Christmas, my children mostly refer to the big guy as Santa, I do agree, I think it's the impact of American culture and all the american Christmas songs, movies, TV shows.

Sorry I think I’ve wrongly tagged @RizzleDrizzle, it’s too hot for my brain to function properly just now!

@Boymumzy

I was brought up with Father Christmas, my grandparents say Father Christmas, my children mostly refer to the big guy as Santa, I do agree, I think it's the impact of American culture and all the american Christmas songs, movies, TV shows.

For us anyway.

@Takethereigns that’s ok I think you tagged me because I was talking about the experience of kids not “understanding my accent” which is similar to your story.

I agree it’s absolutely not a London centric thing. It’s an outsider thing. I guess because @ProudAuntie76 has only experienced it in London she wants it to be a London thing.

But your right it’s just a dislike of outsiders and people being snobbish twats, snobbish people are everywhere.

Boymumzy, do you know any people of Irish, Northern Irish, or Scottish descent? Ever heard anyone on native TV channels referring to Santa Claus?

It is not an Americanism. It's very much a UK and Irish thing.

What’s Mrs Claus called then if you call him Father Christmas ?

This debate was going on when I was a kid. I'm 45 years old and always heard FC/Santa equally as a kid, and I still remember some pretentious adults telling me "It's FC not Santa!" Sinteklaas is European - West Frisian in fact which is the closest language to Old English.

Father Christmas dates back to the 15th Century, whereas Sinteklaas (St Nicholas) is from 270 - 343. Now they are synonymous and either will do.

Good question peppafrig !

I was brought up in a more Father Christmas household (not exclusively - we did also use ‘Santa Claus’ but less frequently and never to describe the Christmas Eve visit element of his job).

Mrs Claus - I honestly have never believed in a mrs Claus - ‘my’ fc/sc was definitely not married - he may have been at one time. By the time he was delivering presents to me he was an older man living and working on his own with the help of the elves. No mrs Claus on the scene at all. A ‘Mrs Claus’ has never sat well with me !

@mathanxiety

Boymumzy, do you know any people of Irish, Northern Irish, or Scottish descent? Ever heard anyone on native TV channels referring to Santa Claus?

It is not an Americanism. It's very much a UK and Irish thing.

This is exactly what I get so frustrated at and it goes round in circles

someEnglish people go horrible americism digressing our culture

Welsh, northern Irish, Scottish Irish ho ok yeah America use it but it’s because of us, it’s a really British thing.
someenglish no it’s American because WE SAY SO

it’s not just American in fact it’s because of America’s conolisation by Britain.

@Boymumzy

I was brought up with Father Christmas, my grandparents say Father Christmas, my children mostly refer to the big guy as Santa, I do agree, I think it's the impact of American culture and all the american Christmas songs, movies, TV shows.

Did you just not bother to read the thread?

What’s Mrs Claus called then if you call him Father Christmas ?

Mother Christmas.