Avon, is this really possible/sustainable?

[ImFree2doasiwant]

I discovered today that a friend is earning 5k a month from Avon. She's some sort of team leader, and started by selling about 18 months ago. She does work quite hard at it by all accounts.

I'll admit to being rather gobsmacked! I thought avon was just "Avon ladies" with catalogues, and now online, taking your orders.

Has anyone else got experience of this? I'm really not considering it for myself (I've seen her social media, it's not something I'd be good at I don't think! )

@BillMasen uplines make money from the downlines. That's part of how they make money. They get paid money for what the people they have "recruited" have sold.

They don't pay it direct out their pocket. It's built into the Avon model.

The money Avon are paying the up line is built into the pricing of the good. It's just an indirect way

You misunderstand your own organisation.

Ok, so a couple of times you’ve said down lines pay their up line or pay to be in Avon. The only thing they pay is the £9 to Avon. Nothing to the up line. Ever. Please accept that bit.

Eh? The more the downlines sell, the more the uplines make. Their income is based on two things - their own personal product sales and their team's sales. They absolutely do make money based on how much their downlines sell! If downlines hit certain figures, the uplines make more money...

[quote PrayingandHoping]@BillMasen uplines make money from the downlines. That's part of how they make money. They get paid money for what the people they have "recruited" have sold.

They don't pay it direct out their pocket. It's built into the Avon model.

The money Avon are paying the up line is built into the pricing of the good. It's just an indirect way

You misunderstand your own organisation. [/quote]
And if it’s effectively built into the price of the product, like every other cost of doing business (like the costs of a retail chain would be) who pays it? The end consumer, same as a retail chain.

Reps don’t. They get commission.

With all these benefits, strange that anyone would stop being an Avon seller.

I still wonder why more businesses don't follow this model.

Avon want reps to be happy with their earnings and stay. Unhappy reps benefit no one.

Benefit no one except Avon, who still make £9 minimum from each rep even those who decide not to continue being a seller after a few months. Which is the majority of them.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Ok, so a couple of times you’ve said down lines pay their up line or pay to be in Avon. The only thing they pay is the £9 to Avon. Nothing to the up line. Ever. Please accept that bit.

Eh? The more the downlines sell, the more the uplines make. Their income is based on two things - their own personal product sales and their team's sales. They absolutely do make money based on how much their downlines sell! If downlines hit certain figures, the uplines make more money...

Correct they do, but it doesn’t come out of their teams pocket, that’s my point. It’s a cost to Avon.

The teams earn commission, not pay to be a rep.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Avon want reps to be happy with their earnings and stay. Unhappy reps benefit no one.

Benefit no one except Avon, who still make £9 minimum from each rep even those who decide not to continue being a seller after a few months. Which is the majority of them.

The £9 covers the kit cost, we don’t make anything from it

5k per month? You'd need to see her bank statement to know if that was actually true. Some people will say/believe any old shite.

"And if it’s effectively built into the price of the product, like every other cost of doing business (like the costs of a retail chain would be) who pays it? The end consumer, same as a retail chain.

Reps don’t. They get commission."

Exactly!!!!!!

If the upline commission was removed the down line would get more money....

They don't pay it directly, they pay it indirectly

It's a way to get around the legalities of a pyramid scheme which it very much is!!

It is nothing like a retail chain. That is a joke! There is no up line commission for a product on a retail chain.

@TikTakTikTak

With all these benefits, strange that anyone would stop being an Avon seller.

I still wonder why more businesses don't follow this model.

There are many reasons why some stop. Change in circumstances, don’t have time, and yes not earning what they expected. It’s not perfect and doesn’t work for some

Personal view here, but it’s a quite dated business model. Retail chains have their bricks and mortar shops so wouldn’t move to direct selling, any business setting up now would likely be digital. New entrants to direct selling are the problematic ones who can see an opportunity to exploit. Legacy direct sellers like Avon genuinely want to behave well.

I don't think you fundamentally understand the business model.

You say it doesn't come out of the team's pocket but the upline profit is built into the pricing model.

Their sales absolutely do generate money for their upline. It just effectively goes through Avon like a middle man.

Product sold with team leaders share built into profit margin - commission paid to Avon - Avon pays team leader. Product sold = team leader gets share. They make money from downlines. That's why they are called downlines. 'Want to earn more money? Build a team!' That's what Avon tells its reps...

Avon facilitate the downline paying the uplines, but they DO get more money the more their team sells. It's just Avon facilitates it. It's like saying that when I pay a friend £10 online, I haven't given it to them but the bank has.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I don't think you fundamentally understand the business model.

You say it doesn't come out of the team's pocket but the upline profit is built into the pricing model.

Their sales absolutely do generate money for their upline. It just effectively goes through Avon like a middle man.

Product sold with team leaders share built into profit margin - commission paid to Avon - Avon pays team leader. Product sold = team leader gets share. They make money from downlines. That's why they are called downlines. 'Want to earn more money? Build a team!' That's what Avon tells its reps...

Avon facilitate the downline paying the uplines, but they DO get more money the more their team sells. It's just Avon facilitates it. It's like saying that when I pay a friend £10 online, I haven't given it to them but the bank has.

Sorry this was to @BillMasen not OP just to be clear!

uplines make money from the downlines. That's part of how they make money. They get paid money for what the people they have "recruited" have sold

At what point are uplines rewarded for downline activity? At the point the downline buys from Avon or at the point the downline sells to the customer outside the scheme? It is usual for uplines to be rewarded on downline purchases, not their sales. Hence the push by uplines to “be a team” and “end the month on a high”. The exploitative potential of rewarding uplines on downlines’ purchases (not their actual sales) is huge.

@PrayingandHoping

"And if it’s effectively built into the price of the product, like every other cost of doing business (like the costs of a retail chain would be) who pays it? The end consumer, same as a retail chain.

Reps don’t. They get commission."

Exactly!!!!!!

If the upline commission was removed the down line would get more money....

They don't pay it directly, they pay it indirectly

It's a way to get around the legalities of a pyramid scheme which it very much is!!

It is nothing like a retail chain. That is a joke! There is no up line commission for a product on a retail chain.

They’re not paying. Yep you’re not wrong, with no leaders the commission pot for reps would in theory be higher, but that’s not making them pay.

We’ve found that reps in a team earn more. They get coached, mentored, supported, and therefore sell more and earn more. The model of sales leaders is designed to aid rep earnings, not reduce them.

I’m happy to keep discussing this and explaining how Avon works. I know a lot of people will always think they are an evil MLM who rip off women but I genuinely do not believe that to be the case. I’m only aiming for a bit of acknowledgment that the Avon model is materially different to the worst mlms (who ime should be banned). I’m being truthful and open here.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I don't think you fundamentally understand the business model.

You say it doesn't come out of the team's pocket but the upline profit is built into the pricing model.

Their sales absolutely do generate money for their upline. It just effectively goes through Avon like a middle man.

Product sold with team leaders share built into profit margin - commission paid to Avon - Avon pays team leader. Product sold = team leader gets share. They make money from downlines. That's why they are called downlines. 'Want to earn more money? Build a team!' That's what Avon tells its reps...

Avon facilitate the downline paying the uplines, but they DO get more money the more their team sells. It's just Avon facilitates it. It's like saying that when I pay a friend £10 online, I haven't given it to them but the bank has.

I’m not disagreeing with that. In theory you’re correct that the reps make slightly less commission in the round as leaders get some.

The point I was making was where people have said reps “pay” that’s not true and expressed in a way that makes out they are out of pocket. They’re not, they might make 15% instead of say 20% in a world with no leaders, but they’re not out of pocket.

I do understand the model, please don’t be patronisibg

@KitKatastrophe

I doubt it. 5k a month is a LOT of money, almost double the average full time wage in this country before tax. I really doubt an avon lady, even a "team leader" is earning more than a surgeon or an engineer.

What surgeons do you know who are only earning £5k a month?

But @BillMasen you are just twisting it (as all MLMs do) saying they don't pay. They do. Just not directly by your own admission as they don't get as much commission as they would if there was no upline.

People have real issue with this business model.

They play with words to justify it all

@BillMasen

That's just semantics I'm afraid.

Re being patronising, I had kind of hoped you didn't completely understand it and that's why you were challenging people's position on the upline / downline money issue.

But maybe you do understand and you're just manipulating the description of the business model with semantics to make it appear the way you want it to.

I would be interested to hear in what ways you think Avon is so different to other MLM businesses like Arbonne and Herbalife?

How does the “Avon model” differ from, for example Body Shop at Home or Forever Living or Valentus (to name other member companies of the DSA). I’m not clear on how it is set apart from other MLM and would appreciate you explaining the exact differences @BillMasen.

Also, can you show us an income disclosure for Avon U.K.? This will show what proportion earn what amount before expenses among active sellers who don’t drop out in the first year (most do).

Actually I think people are right about the profit not going out Of the down lines pocket. I was a rep when they brought sales leaders in and the prices/commission didn't change

@PrayingandHoping

But *@BillMasen* you are just twisting it (as all MLMs do) saying they don't pay. They do. Just not directly by your own admission as they don't get as much commission as they would if there was no upline.

People have real issue with this business model.

They play with words to justify it all

They would get more commission if there were no head office costs, if we paid people in the wearhouse less, if I got paid less. Yes in theory but these are all costs to the business. The cake is only so big and gets sliced/spent in the way that maximises sales and rep earnings. It’s fundamentally different from claiming we make reps pay for their leaders any more than they pay for me...

We’re getting quite theoretical here, but if Avon invests correctly in areas that grow sales, like leaders, then sales grow, rep earnings grow so they make more in £, albeit less as a % than they would have done without the leaders.

@BillMasen there is a massive difference between uplines being paid and the day to day business costs. Massive. That's comparing apples and oranges

Ok if you pay for the kit and sell nothing you’ll lose £9 but that’s all.

Right, you can’t surely believe your own lies that new reps only buy the £9 kit can you?
I’ve attached a screen shot of the two kits. The £9 one is literally just a single lipstick, no brochure, no sales tools. How exactly does that help to start the reps “business”? You know it doesn’t. They all go for the £30 one. No-one is losing just £9.

This information is right there on Avon’s website. How can you be stupid enough to think people won’t be able to find it? They’ve done a real good job on you.

@Looneytune253

Actually I think people are right about the profit not going out Of the down lines pocket. I was a rep when they brought sales leaders in and the prices/commission didn't change

The cost of extra leader commissions came from cost savings elsewhere. Yes the rep commissions didn’t change. Since then they’ve gone up

To the poster asking for uk income disclosures etc, clearly I can’t share sensitive information and you know that. Commercially sensitive, not because it’s hiding a great rip off secret

I joined in this thread to add some facts to the debate and I’m not overly happy about being accused of misinformation and manipulation. Lying in effect, like I’m part of some giant conspiracy.

I’m a normal person working for a business that I know is genuine. It matters to me that I work for a good employer with a conscience and a social responsibility. I would not hitch my wagon to a company that was ripping people off, and all I’ve done here is try to explain from the perspective of someone who works there how it actually wirks in this one specific business. It’s not right to call my personal integrity into question here.

@Smallsteps88

Ok if you pay for the kit and sell nothing you’ll lose £9 but that’s all.

Right, you can’t surely believe your own lies that new reps only buy the £9 kit can you?
I’ve attached a screen shot of the two kits. The £9 one is literally just a single lipstick, no brochure, no sales tools. How exactly does that help to start the reps “business”? You know it doesn’t. They all go for the £30 one. No-one is losing just £9.

This information is right there on Avon’s website. How can you be stupid enough to think people won’t be able to find it? They’ve done a real good job on you.

Lies and stupid is uncalled for