How can Ann Sacolas live with her actions?

[GrumblyMumblyisnotJumbly]

Fell so dreadfully sorry for Harry Dunn's family. The high court has ruled that Ann Sacolas DID have diplomatic immunity. She did not work at the base. She drove on the wrong side of the road. She caused Harry's death. She has not taken responsibility for her actions. How would she feel if it had been her child killed?

Reading everyone else's replies I am considering strongly that I may be an awful person because I'm pretty sure in her position I would have left too. In her position I would have weighed up my guilt at what I'd done ( which would be horrific) vs. the risk of imprisonment when I had young children, and any legal advice available to me. My need to be with my kids would likely outweigh the guilt.
I'm uncomfortable admitting it because if it was my kid I would want the driver in court. But pretty sure I would make the same decision she did.

Harry's parents were given an audience with the President of the US for heaven's sake and they refused to meet with Anne Sacoolas at the White House. She could have apologised then but they want what they believe to be justice - Anne Sacoolas in court where she'd probably only get a fine or suspended sentence.

So...it's vindictive to want her to go to court? And they should feel grateful they got to see Trumpy trousers in person and that makes up for their child dying and the person responsible not showing up in court ever? And you think them not wishing to see her casually and on her home turf means she shouldn't have to go to court?

It would honestly be better for her if she did go to court. As you say, her sentence would likely be light. What is vindictive about thinking that? I personally think a short, not very nice, but not torturous, stay in prison would maybe be a good outcome for her as well. They are never going to systematically torture her or give her a long sentence in this country. How is it better for her to be left to her own devices in the states? It must be awful knowing you have run away after something like this.

@Mylittlepony374

Reading everyone else's replies I am considering strongly that I may be an awful person because I'm pretty sure in her position I would have left too. In her position I would have weighed up my guilt at what I'd done ( which would be horrific) vs. the risk of imprisonment when I had young children, and any legal advice available to me. My need to be with my kids would likely outweigh the guilt. I'm uncomfortable admitting it because if it was my kid I would want the driver in court. But pretty sure I would make the same decision she did.

Of course people who committed crimes want to escape justice and of course the victims of the crime want the perpetrators to be brought to justice Which of those two parties should be given consideration?

Trump completely ambushed the Patents by saying that she was in the next room and did they want to meet her. Which is a pretty shitty thing to spring on them, with no warning.

@Mylittlepony374

Reading everyone else's replies I am considering strongly that I may be an awful person because I'm pretty sure in her position I would have left too. In her position I would have weighed up my guilt at what I'd done ( which would be horrific) vs. the risk of imprisonment when I had young children, and any legal advice available to me. My need to be with my kids would likely outweigh the guilt. I'm uncomfortable admitting it because if it was my kid I would want the driver in court. But pretty sure I would make the same decision she did.

Why though? Are you that precious that you can't face a day in court at the request of the parents whose child you (accidentally) killed? I don't think you're a "horrible person", but you aren't very rational.

I think there’s a lot more to this, that hasn’t been released. Was there not a lot of speculation that one or both of them were secret service/spies? If so, there are maybe very valid national security reasons for why she wouldn’t be allowed to return by the US Govt/Military (even if she wanted to) to face court and the resultant media circus. I do however, think that the U.K. should reconsider what immunity protections are offered, to whom and for what crimes, but this can’t be retrospectively applied. It’s a tragic situation all round, obviously more so for the family of the deceased.

Are those who are all 'oh poor Anne Sacoolas, stop being horrid am sure she feels just awful ' really serious? Your concern here is for some one who did a hit and run? Absolutely ridiculous.

She killed a young man through dangerous driving. She needs to pay the price for that as a British court would see fit.

It’s a shame for her family and her children but Harry is the one who is dead. You don’t commit a crime and get a free pass.

Except if your husband is a diplomat apparently 🤷🏻‍♀️

The whole diplomatic immunity system is archaic and needs to be scrapped. Why would you not be held responsible for a crime? The story kills me every time I see it in the paper, his poor parents.

@lurker101

I think there’s a lot more to this, that hasn’t been released. Was there not a lot of speculation that one or both of them were secret service/spies? If so, there are maybe very valid national security reasons for why she wouldn’t be allowed to return by the US Govt/Military (even if she wanted to) to face court and the resultant media circus. I do however, think that the U.K. should reconsider what immunity protections are offered, to whom and for what crimes, but this can’t be retrospectively applied. It’s a tragic situation all round, obviously more so for the family of the deceased.

Maybe.

Because being purely rational and not emotional about it here; it just doesn't make any sense.

Would anyone pick a lifetime of knowing youd run away, "her sentence will be a lifetime of knowing she did this and ran away" etc, or coming to court and getting what we all know would be an extremely light sentence? Any sensible person would pick the latter no? If she had committed numerous more serious crimes it would almost make more sense that she ran off.

I think regarding saying "sorry" - she may well have had legal advice not to do so. "Sorry" can be interpreted as an admission of guilt - that's what I was told way back when dealing with a customer who was trying to bring a personal injury claim against my employers.

Deepest sympathies with the family, but I don't think an apology is going to make the slightest bit of difference to them.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation

I think regarding saying "sorry" - she may well have had legal advice not to do so. "Sorry" can be interpreted as an admission of guilt - that's what I was told way back when dealing with a customer who was trying to bring a personal injury claim against my employers.

Deepest sympathies with the family, but I don't think an apology is going to make the slightest bit of difference to them.

But she is guilty. She killed him.

She is guilty of dangerous driving. Be she a diplomat or no, Harry Dunn is dead because of her. Harry Dunn would likely be alive today had she not left the base that day. She’s guilty as sin and that has never been disputed. It’s just ‘one of those things’.

Given the circumstances she likely would not have been imprisoned, if she had faced the charges and gone through the correct channels it would likely be over for her (aside from the guilt of course); now she will have it dangling over her head and her name has been dragged through the press. If she does work for the SS it's unlikely she would be able to continue, seen as though her face and name (possibly an alias I guess) is known. Probably would have worked out better for all if she hadn't run away, but I do wonder how much is policy in this case, and how much is personal choice.

It is a witch-hunt precisely because of the circumstances, i.e. because she had diplomatic immunity and had gone back to the US.

if it had been anyone else it wouldn’t have even made it to the back pages of the press, but because she left and went to America she has essentially become the figurehead for every person who has accidentally hit someone while driving.

And the truth is that whatever happened would never be enough. If she had made an apology people would be saying that it wasn’t enough, that if she meant it she would be coming back to the UK to face justice.

If she’d been prosecuted and received a minimal or suspended sentence people would be saying that it didn’t really matter that she’d been to court, she was likely being given a suspended sentence because of the relationship with the US, never mind that most hit and run drivers receive the same.

And none of this is going to bring closure to Harry Dunn’s family. Not really. Instead of grieving for their son, all their energy is being focussed on a desired outcome which is never going to happen. How long does this go on. A year? Two? Five? Ten? Will they look back in ten years time and realise that its been that long since he died and they were so busy focusing on the woman who hit him that his memory has been lost in the midst of all that?

Nothing is ever going to bring Harry Dunn back. And no amount of justice will ever be seen as enough. Not by his family, not by the press, and not by the members of the public who are continuing to be outraged about this.

I've heard that she was fully cooperating with the police, she attended a police station, she remained on the scene at the time until the ambulance arrived. It wasn't a hit and run.

The US embassy then said that she had two choices:

1. Leave, immediately
2. Remain, but without any legal support or backing, and against their wishes. And that her family would go back to the US

Completely tragic case, of course she should face justice, but when faced with the above decision how many would remain against gov advice, without legal support, without their family?

I think there is more going on behaving the scenes than we are aware of, with the US decision to pull her out so quickly.

My point is that thousands of people believe they have been the victims of injustice and they are ignored but the President of the United States met with Harry's family. Love or loathe Trump that was a big deal.

I think it's a pity they didn't take the opportunity to meet with Anne Sacoolas. Talking with her might have given them some form of closure. No way are they going to get the court case they want - the US govt aren't going to let AS come back to the UK.

I am so angry at the result of this, I've followed and supported Justice4Harry since I heard about it. I have every confidence Charlotte, Tim and Radd will continue to fight for Harry, and as for Raab, he outright lied as did his department, and the courts have covered for him.

I have limited sympathy for her. Mistakes that kill people aren’t things you should walk away from.

However, the US government are to blame for her escaping justice. She left on their instructions, after she told the base commanders what happened, and they organised it. The US government is the one, that despite requests to waive her immunity, chose not to and instead protected her - as they always do, even when US personnel kill, rape or assault around the world. Not only should we change, and negotiate changes in others, driving policies on bases with family deployments; but we need to review how we manage policing communication on crimes that may have foreign military involvement. On top of that, we should consider growing some balls and sanctioning the US when this happens again, even if that is expelling someone from the base who made the decision to remove her, to send a message that this is unacceptable. We won’t do this, of course, partly because we are a bit of a mouse and partly because we don’t want questions over our own diplomats.

That leaves what to do with Sacoolas. The best thing is to give her so much media attention, that she can’t do her nice little job at Langley because she can’t keep out of the spotlight. Report every Langley leak, link it to her, every ‘accomplishment’, every friendly meeting she has with her biggest fan - Trump. The media should burn her. She can go home, stay there, and dwell on her actions.

@allthingsred

I feel so sorry for the Dunns. I understand it was an accident & she ( Anne) would have been terrified. But she lost all my sympathy when she left without so much as a sorry. She hasn't taken any responsibility for it at all. Even if she stayed and got a slap on the wrist at least his family could have gotten closure. She's a very selfish woman

It is not as you state, an "Accident" as that means no one is at fault or to blame. In this case, she drove on the wrong side of the road for a considerable period of time, resulting in the tragic death of Harry. She was charged by causing Death by Dangerous Driving, she fled back home to avoid facing the charges.

@RunningFromInsanity

I understand Harry Dunn’s family want justice but at this point the witch hunt is too much.

It was an accident, she took advice, and the advice was (wrongly or rightly) to leave.

She has a young child, she doesn’t want to risk being imprisoned in a foreign country.

If someone offered you the choice-
A) Stay, get a criminal record for death by dangerous driving, possibly prison
or
B) Leave now, go home and don’t return.

Which would you really choose?
Would your ‘moral compass’ really outweigh your self preservation, your freedom and your family life? I highly doubt it.

I live near the airbase and it is worryingly common how many people drive out of the gates and onto the wrong side of the road.

It was not an "Accident"

Death by Dangerous Driving, research the law before you come on here stating it's a witch hunt

@praepondero

She will have to live with killing that poor boy for the rest of her life. I don't want to imagine the torturous thoughts that plague her at night, it'll eat her up, eventually. Well, unless she is very good at compartmentalising.

Diddums.

It’ll be nothing compared to how the Dunn family are feeling having lost their child in tragic circumstances.

And to the “what purpose would it serve” posters, would you feel the same if someone killed your loved one? Would you evade justice yourself?

@AlternativePerspective

It is a witch-hunt precisely because of the circumstances, i.e. because she had diplomatic immunity and had gone back to the US.

if it had been anyone else it wouldn’t have even made it to the back pages of the press, but because she left and went to America she has essentially become the figurehead for every person who has accidentally hit someone while driving.

And the truth is that whatever happened would never be enough. If she had made an apology people would be saying that it wasn’t enough, that if she meant it she would be coming back to the UK to face justice.

If she’d been prosecuted and received a minimal or suspended sentence people would be saying that it didn’t really matter that she’d been to court, she was likely being given a suspended sentence because of the relationship with the US, never mind that most hit and run drivers receive the same.

And none of this is going to bring closure to Harry Dunn’s family. Not really. Instead of grieving for their son, all their energy is being focussed on a desired outcome which is never going to happen. How long does this go on. A year? Two? Five? Ten? Will they look back in ten years time and realise that its been that long since he died and they were so busy focusing on the woman who hit him that his memory has been lost in the midst of all that?

Nothing is ever going to bring Harry Dunn back. And no amount of justice will ever be seen as enough. Not by his family, not by the press, and not by the members of the public who are continuing to be outraged about this.

This isn’t about Harry’s parenting and their grief. This is about Harry and Harry’s justice. He died and it didn’t matter. No one cared. No one gave a shit. He was a kid in the wrong place at the wrong time and sadly his killer was above the law.

This isn’t a witch hunt, this is justice for a woman who killed a 19 year old and is now probably at home with her family planning Christmas.

She shouldn’t be able to walk away from this, this should be in the media constantly. She doesn’t go to prison but she should be followed and haunted by this for the rest of her life. She killed a man and she has gotten off very lightly. She and all diplomats and authorative bodies should hang their heads in shame.

If she is so irresponsible she cannot drive on the correct side of the road then she is unfit to be in charge of fucking children. Countless of people drive abroad and manage to adhere to local laws. If we didn’t what would happen? We would face the consequences. She is not a victim in this.

Parents*

@Backbee

Given the circumstances she likely would not have been imprisoned, if she had faced the charges and gone through the correct channels it would likely be over for her (aside from the guilt of course); now she will have it dangling over her head and her name has been dragged through the press. If she does work for the SS it's unlikely she would be able to continue, seen as though her face and name (possibly an alias I guess) is known. Probably would have worked out better for all if she hadn't run away, but I do wonder how much is policy in this case, and how much is personal choice.

Yes, these were my thoughts too. I think she's made it much worse for herself. If she'd faced the charges, I doubt she'd have been imprisoned, and people would have had more sympathy with her. Most of us have had a moment of stupidity when driving, but most are lucky that it doesn't have serious consequences.

As it is, she left, which made it a big story, and I imagine most people have little sympathy that her actions robbed a family of the scant comfort of at least "getting justice." And you just know her kids will throw it in her face when they're teenagers, and she's attempting to discipline them.

I do wonder if there could be more to this. Otherwise, yes, why were they so keen for her not to stay and get, yeah, a slap on the wrist and probably not a lot more said about it? No media attention etc.

But, if it's espionage or something like that, then why is BJ asking for her to be extradited back here? The Americans saying "Bojo, hush hush, but it's an issue of international security" and I can only imagine BJ saying "ah say no more wink wink" and it all being hushed up. (I'm sure that is EXACTLY how they converse btw..not really).

It could just have been a massive overreaction and but of willy waving from a POTUS who sort of has form for being irrational...

We'll never know probably. Speculating on here might end up with the thread being zapped as well.

Maybe not the POTUS, but his administration. Weird he has taken such an interest though. Are he and she friends or something? All so weird. And YY the running away made it into such a bigger issue than it needed to be.