Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Why do americans fear anything that's slightly left wing, let alone socialist ?

270 replies

Schonerlebnis · 07/11/2020 06:59

Admit it's a bit of a blanket statement but there seems to be this widespread fear of any kind of left wing policy. I'm on a non political facebook group (cooking related so as ordinary as you can get) which has many US members and was surprised by how many called obama care socialist Confused
Even the Democrats are accused of being left leaning (correct me if I'm wrong but that's not even remotely accurate !) and I'm not sure that they even have unions anymore ? On a recent US election thread someone mentioned that people feared that changes to the benefits system to support the vulnerable would lead to a rise in taxes and so make them poorer..... Can any one explain why a country that claims to look after the persecuted and vulnerable has such odd views ?

OP posts:
GalesThisMorning · 08/11/2020 18:41

I've seen a lot of posts on mumsnet that wonder or ask about Americans and their culture. The underlying question always seems to be: why are they so different to us?

I agree with the pp who said the British are more like the French than they are like Americans. You are European, although obviously not entirely happily!!!

We share the same language but our history, culture, geography, values, ideals, ambitions are very different. It's a different culture, despite the fact that food and pop culture etc is so readily accessible.

When I first moved to the UK from the US I expected the culture to be very different, and it is. There are some British ideas and ideals I will never fully understand. My children have adopted traits that are intrinsically "un-American" and that's ok. Different cultures are different after all

IsaInTheLift · 08/11/2020 20:42

There are some British ideas and ideals I will never fully understand

I know it's derailing the thread a bit but I'd love to know what these are Smile.

I agree we are much more like our Western European neighbours than the USA. I wonder how we compare to Australian culture - I often imagine that as halfway between American and Western European.

Graphista · 08/11/2020 23:08

@ivykaty44 I agree the lack of union support is a major factor re poor employee and associated rights.

As well as the corruption angle, they also see this as socialist which is the premise of the thread and we know they mistrust anything remotely socialist - while in my opinion not really understanding what socialism is. They're far too quick to equate it with communism without understanding the nuances.

@Peregrina Yes USA actions in the Cold War seem very played down to me, it's very obvious in film and tv even set at the time of the Cold War but the stuff made at the time pertaining to it borders on propaganda!

@user1471565182 I agree the puritans had their faults (understatement!) as do most population groups especially where religion is involved, but I think at the time they emigrated they did feel they were being persecuted BUT it was persecution largely of their own making, being more of a "backlash" situation, with primarily non separatist c of e followers disagreeing with the puritans extremism, not to mention catholics fighting to not be criminalised etc and tensions were running extremely high in England! Remember this was the time of the civil war, Guy Fawkes and parliament being dissolved at the whim of a hubristic king etc

The people concerned may all have been "Christians" but they saw themselves as widely differing in beliefs as we perhaps now view the differences between Christianity, Judaism and islam which some followers claim to be completely separate unconnected religions but they are all connected in a variety of ways.

I have wondered at times if this is at least partly the root of the fears certain white Americans have regarding non whites achieving significant positions of power. The fear of the oppressed becoming oppressor.

Its paid for through National Insurance payments

It's not solely paid for this way hasn't been for ages, it's funded through multiple taxation sources.

Personally I think it should be NI only and ring fenced which would mean NI Is increased but it is really low at the moment 12% at the moment? As the base rate I mean though it's more complex than that in reality.

I'm thinking USA workers pay a lot more than that for healthcare!

A quick google suggests a MINIMUM of 20% of pay? Any USA experienced posters able to guide on this?

USA health insurance is 3x that of an average NI payment from a n average wage. wow that's a huge difference!

I Believe also that this doesn't include what they call "out of pocket" payments which again quick google looks to be around $1400 per annum per person? And varies depending on insurer?

And that's IF you can get insurance plus of course the lovely "pre existing conditions are not covered" nonsense!

As someone who is disabled with multiple health issues I am absolutely terrified at the mere thought of the Uk even moving TOWARDS a USA style system. Basically I'd likely be dead in 6 months!

To those who said they had conversations with Americans in USA on the subject, did it not occur to you to tell them that our system is

A cheaper per person (surely this would appeal to their individualist stance?)
B not subject to pre approval by actuaries/accountants and similar rather than hcps
C generally much fairer than theirs

???

That's what I'd have said

As for "paying for something I don't use every day" well they're doing that anyway! Assuming they're currently in good health and not on any daily meds? (Which ime is incredibly rare especially as people get older)

I wonder how we compare to Australian culture - I often imagine that as halfway between American and Western European I have family in Australia and New Zealand.

NZ tends to a more Northern European style of culture and Australia is more influenced by Asian culture than I think many in Uk or USA realise. Again you have to consider the geographical location. It may have been "settled" by white folk but it's far closer to the cultural influences of its indigenous people and those of south east Asia than it is to British culture in particular.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Mimishimi · 09/11/2020 01:40

There's a lot of money and power involved in pushing terrible rightwing agendas. Many American businessmen, including the forebears of Trump and Bush, helped to bankroll the Nazi's. They hate the poor, Christian, Jewish,Muslim or Rastafarian.

The terrifying thing is that they are all in this together. It's not just in the U.S

Caeruleanblue · 09/11/2020 05:43

There's a lot of money and power involved in pushing terrible rightwing agendas. Many American businessmen, including the forebears of Trump and Bush, helped to bankroll the Nazi's. They hate the poor, Christian, Jewish,Muslim or Rastafarian

Surely there are poor, Christian, Jewish, Muslims and Rastafarians with right wing views. Who are these american businessmen? Are you talking about the Gates, Bezos monopolies?
I would say the supposedly woke misogynistic/ transgender lobby is scarier. Also racists.

IsaInTheLift · 09/11/2020 06:41

NZ tends to a more Northern European style of culture and Australia is more influenced by Asian culture than I think many in Uk or USA realise. Again you have to consider the geographical location. It may have been "settled" by white folk but it's far closer to the cultural influences of its indigenous people and those of south east Asia than it is to British culture in particular

That's interesting. Does that translate into it being less individualistic?

Peregrina · 09/11/2020 08:02

When I first moved to the UK from the US I expected the culture to be very different, and it is.

DH said the same in reverse after his first visit to the USA - it was a lot more foreign than he expected. I am not sure that he could quite put his finger on why though.

ivykaty44 · 09/11/2020 09:52

*Its paid for through National Insurance payments

It's not solely paid for this way hasn't been for ages, it's funded through multiple taxation sources.

Personally I think it should be NI only and ring fenced which would mean NI Is increased but it is really low at the moment 12% at the moment? As the base rate I mean though it's more complex than that in reality.

niño covers schooling, pension and health care and gradually the cost has increased for all therefore Nino just ends up in the pot with general taxation

didn't niño start with Lloyd George government?

if the use put a 12% tax on every pay packet up to $55k for health care it would cost the American population less per month for health care

but strangely, to my mind, they rather pay a health care insurance at a higher cost and not a lower cost taxation

Runningdownthathill · 09/11/2020 09:57

A lot of it is fear of the Commies . This was exacerbated by the Cold War. They have always been terrified of Communism and the Russians in particular. America is a country built in money. It worships money. Without capitalism, real estate, banking, aspirational materialism and every man for himself, there are no other values.Trump epitomises all that perfectly. A man obsessed by power and money but morally bankrupt.

DGRossetti · 09/11/2020 10:14

The fear of communism has done more damage in the past 100 years than communism itself.

user1471565182 · 09/11/2020 14:13

Here you are, Caeruleanblue. Fairly ridiculous to call a few idiots on twitter worse than an issue that fuelled nazism and Trump and everything inbetween.

www.opensecrets.org/industries/lobbying.php?cycle=All&ind=Q01

and this

bylinetimes.com/2020/11/03/trumpocracy-in-the-uk-boris-johnsons-lobby-group-us-dark-money/

'Trump takes note as the far right lobbies for violent crackdown on peaceful protests'-

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/trump-protests-notes-far-right-crackdown-peaceful-protesters

Then theres Steve Bannon. And im not really sure why Gates is dangerous (as long as you dont listen to the Qanon crap from huns on facebook). And the Right Wingers are the racists.

MissConductUS · 09/11/2020 14:39

@DGRossetti

The fear of communism has done more damage in the past 100 years than communism itself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
DGRossetti · 09/11/2020 14:51

The fear of communism has done more damage in the past 100 years than communism itself.

MissConductUS · 09/11/2020 14:55

@DGRossetti

The fear of communism has done more damage in the past 100 years than communism itself.
So you don't consider the 70-100 million people who died under communist regimes in the 20th century "damage"?
user1471565182 · 09/11/2020 15:48

Its funny how they never count the millions and millions who died under capitalist regimes in the same way. Rossetti clearly isnt claiming we need something like the soviet union, they're saying the uneducated who conflate the sort of 1945 labour party socialism with soviet communism have held this and other countries back a century or so.

DGRossetti · 09/11/2020 16:03

@user1471565182

Its funny how they never count the millions and millions who died under capitalist regimes in the same way. Rossetti clearly isnt claiming we need something like the soviet union, they're saying the uneducated who conflate the sort of 1945 labour party socialism with soviet communism have held this and other countries back a century or so.
Not sure I was, really. Just remembering millions killed by the US in Vietnam - and as many left orphaned or crippled (or both) - thanks to the worlds greatest superpowers fears of "communism". A fear which has seen the US allied with the most despotic, despicable and downright nastiest regimes in the past century. And a fear which has almost always seen the US back the loser. Wherever they go.

It wasn't I that defined "harm" in my statement, by the way. In the same way it's not for me to say I am the Messiah. It's for others to say Grin

user1471565182 · 09/11/2020 16:06

You're right, and its the fact they count deaths that happened during the russian civil war and second world war and natural famines that makes a mockery of it as well-whilst they wouldnt dream of attributing the holocaust for instance to 'the casualties of capitalism'

user1471565182 · 09/11/2020 16:07

40 million people died in world war 1 in 4 years thanks to capitalism. Incidentally Lenins ended that war in russia

user1471565182 · 09/11/2020 16:08

*casualities that should say

hopingforonlychild · 09/11/2020 16:20

The Settler- Pioneer narrative is the predominant narrative in the founding of the USA. If you had to build your own wooden house, grow your own food, are hundreds of miles away from medical care/police/live in extremely hostile conditions, you probably wouldn't believe in taxes and believe in toting guns. My MIL is friends with Israeli settlers in the palestinian territories and surprise, the father of that family also carries a gun to dinner. Distrust of authority and wanting to opt out of any form of government intervention is natural to settler colonialists.

The USA is also the most religious first world country. if you look at countries with a comprehensive welfare system, its pretty much synonymous with irreligiousity. Having a welfare state does intrude on some of the functions of religion- helping the poor and destitute, providing free medical care. A lot of people in the US don't see universal healthcare as a right as they think they can (a) pray to god, (b) church would help them. The Churches also have a vested interest in keeping public services to the minimum so the population would rely on them more; they can also get more funding from their donors if there are more special interest programs.

The UK might be a class based society but the working classes had sacrificed so much in the two world wars that their needs could no longer be ignored hence the nhs and the welfare state. Also we have a Labour Party, born out of the unions which managed to fight for many of the rights we take for granted today.

hopingforonlychild · 09/11/2020 16:29

Its also rooted in the Calvinist Protestant work ethic where your hard work, thrift and efficiency is essential in your eternal salvation. US Evangelical Christianity (the largest bloc) is Calvinist, COE isn't doctrinally Calvinist.

This is also different in Catholicism which is more predominant in Europe. Assistance for the poor is a big part of catholic social teaching, as well as dignity of work (fair working conditions.)

StrippedFridge · 09/11/2020 17:50

@studychick81 Another equally upset saying 'I don't want my children growing up in a socialist state, where people's feelings take priority' I am
Still trying to work out what that even means

They were talking about fear of identity politics. Specifically, if someone feels offended by what you say or do then then that thing is bad and wrong. There is a creeping culture of changing laws on the basis of winding up enough people to say "I feel offended" or "I feel bad" about a topic. The clear example is the extremist end of the trans activism movement where it is becoming considered deeply wrong to say humans can't change biological sex and which biological sex one is does matter because some people who identify with the opposite sex will feel very bad. The talk is of how suicidal some people might become not whether the facts are right or wrong.

I expect that's what the person meant. Keep in mind that right next door in Canada they can see the lunacy taking hold in law so there is extra fear of Feelings Trumping Facts

DillonPanthersTexas · 09/11/2020 18:10

natural famines

That's quite some rewriting of history!

hopingforonlychild · 09/11/2020 18:26

@ivykaty44 at the same time, the NHS provides a basic standard of healthcare. Its a great thing to have, to have the security of knowing that whatever your current situation in life, you would be eligible for healthcare. at the same time, the nhs doesn't always serve everyone's needs perfectly. My DH is going for an elective operation tomorrow covered by private insurance with a private surgeon as the NHS is quite tricky to access during covid. The NHS is useful only up to a point and many people do use private medical care as a backup option.

From what I understand, medical care in the USA is quicker than the NHS and easily accessible if you have the insurance/money. So for rich people, it is preferable. Its just not great for 90% of the population.

But comparing the NHS with the top quality (and also expensive) medical care with minimal waiting times in the USA is not really comparable.

ivykaty44 · 09/11/2020 18:38

Where are you getting that the US provides top quality health care? Isn’t it ranked around 35th in the world having slipped considerably since the 1980s

Swipe left for the next trending thread