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Why do americans fear anything that's slightly left wing, let alone socialist ?

270 replies

Schonerlebnis · 07/11/2020 06:59

Admit it's a bit of a blanket statement but there seems to be this widespread fear of any kind of left wing policy. I'm on a non political facebook group (cooking related so as ordinary as you can get) which has many US members and was surprised by how many called obama care socialist Confused
Even the Democrats are accused of being left leaning (correct me if I'm wrong but that's not even remotely accurate !) and I'm not sure that they even have unions anymore ? On a recent US election thread someone mentioned that people feared that changes to the benefits system to support the vulnerable would lead to a rise in taxes and so make them poorer..... Can any one explain why a country that claims to look after the persecuted and vulnerable has such odd views ?

OP posts:
Graphista · 07/11/2020 23:14

And that's how we ended up with Brexit. Many people are about to find out how much those annoying regulations protected them.

Yes, unfortunately those of us who didn't vote for Brexit will equally suffer

@whenwillthemadnessend I agree with your post re unis

Now this fierce independence and fear of interference is manipulated by the capitalist money-holders to prevent the masses from demanding more rights.

I'd agree with that.

I also think they're delusional I'm thinking they're not controlled by the privileged! Costs a lot of money to run for even a congressional seat let alone president! These are not "ordinary hard working Americans" governing them, generally speaking, but extremely privileged people who have little experience of the obstacles many ordinary Americans face in their day to day lives. Mostly rich old white Protestant men still!

It’s all bullshit though because they can be socialist when they want to be. yep

as the Nordic and British aren’t fleeing the reality of their socialist states for the US. I think it’s fair to conclude that Cuba and Venezuela have problems that aren’t caused by socialism. Mainly that the US has spent decades trying to destabilise them whilst also fuelling the drugs trade.

I'd agree with that.

Not to mention the many that stay in Cuba, Venezuela etc and don't see their country's governance as particularly worse than another's

just a reminder to everyone that Tony Blair introduced tuition fees. are you claiming Blair was socialist? Because many of us would disagree

They still have a long way to go to become more civilised

I agree...but so do we and we seem to have been regressing in recent years! We still have some socialist entities but haven't had a socialist govt in over 40 years and are in danger of losing our greatest socialist organisations eg nhs

Springfern · 07/11/2020 23:14

Because of the Vietnam war

Graphista · 07/11/2020 23:14

Americans often deny that they have class issues, mainly tied into culturally ingrained racism and bigotry (it's not just anti non whites there are still massive prejudices against Jews, catholics etc too - which they strenuously deny)

Their lack of maternity rights, employee rights, effective equality legislation etc is truly shocking! Decades behind most developed and even some developing nations!

any American can work hard and change their life for the better oh please! What utter nonsense! A poor black mentally ill woman is screwed! They can’t simply “work hard and change their life for the better” hell just poor black women can’t!

Brits are good at Othering each other. omg you really believe Americans don’t?! You’re deluded!!

A black woman from Harlem couldn’t get an Ivy League education and even if she DID end up able to attend an Ivy League uni she’d be treated contemptuously! Be realistic!

This is the myth that keeps Americans in line absolutely! Combined I believe with a poor and very insular education system and msm.

I suppose being thousands of miles away from socialism erm...think you might want to glance at a globe! A major reason USA feared communism was that actually communist countries were very CLOSE to America and posed a military threat as a result. This comment reminded me of my brothers own epiphany when he received a fast explanation from my parents via showing him on a map as to WHY the Cuban Missile crisis was a very present, very obvious threat to USA security being as cuba is only 103 miles from florida! The discussion also led to his shock upon learning that ussr (this discussion happened in the 80’s), there’s a place where the distance between russia and USA is a mere 55 miles, you could WALK it in a few days! The proximity geographically was as much a part of why they feared ussr and cuba as the cultural differences.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Graphista · 07/11/2020 23:15

it starts to look like healthcare is run as a profit making series of enterprises skimming away money from actual healthcare. it’s not “looks like” it IS designed to make profit! USA insurers, hospitals etc are often private companies and they exist to make profits NOT to provide altruistic healthcare. There are some charity hospitals and varying types of basic govt provision but as far as I can tell most healthcare organisations are private profit making companies. You even see this in the way on USA tv and film becoming a dr is seen as good not from an altruistic position but because they’ll get paid loads!

At its core the USA healthcare system seems to mean that whether a patient is treated, hell even just seen or not is based on the decisions of accountants rather than hcps! As both an ex hcp and a patient that horrifies me and makes zero sense.

With socialism the ones with power and money tend to be self elected etc

I strongly disagree! Leaders in militant communist countries may take control by military force but in capitalist countries they’re still just as unfairly and corruptly selected in terms of buying elections - directly or indirectly

in the absence of a decent social welfare system, a large proportion of voters are disenfranchised. exactly - which means it isn’t a true democracy either

America is actually a plutocracy, and to a lesser extent, a meritocracy I’d agree with that

and yet still their left wing would probably still be right of centre here. actually I think slightly right of centre here is probably more accurate

Just an aspiration that caste or creed shouldn't hold you back 😂😂😂 and yet NO HINT of irony!

FDRs new deal was a response to a desperate situation the new deal was largely a response to white Protestant men being plunged into poverty! Poverty that other Americans had been expected to suck up for centuries and was apportioned to “moral failure and laziness”

And yes generally speaking Americans seem to think that treating others fairly and respectfully means they will lose out? Bizarre! No a fair and equal society benefits everyone

Thewithesarehere · 07/11/2020 23:18

A very interesting thread so placemarking.

7Days · 07/11/2020 23:43

graphista I dont know why you're sneering at my quote that Caste or Creed shouldn't hold you back.

It shouldn't. That is literally the principle on which the country was founded. If you read the rest of my post, Americans acknowledge that it hasn't always worked, it's always been an ideal to work towards rather than a Done Deal. A contrast to the aristocracy of the Uk, the overt religious discrimination in most of Europe and indeed elsewhere in the world to this day, the slavery that was still extant in their own country etc etc. They said this is wrong, let's aim for better.
There has always been forward motion in pursuit of that goal, not perfect, not achieved but a very good ideal to aim for and it has worked for many.

I really dont know why people expect perfection, job done, forever, and cast all into the fire when they dont get it. The world has never worked like that. What works is noble aims and the dull plodding graft of slow implementation.

Graphista · 08/11/2020 01:58

@7days - because it's a total myth and always has been as far as USA goes! Right from the start and the treatment of the indigenous population, through slavery etc until now!

You're right it shouldn't! But the belief you seem to hold that the majority of those in power in USA history especially the founders actually MEANT to include native Americans, black people, Jews or even catholics is frankly laughable!

Americans acknowledge that it hasn't always worked please DO point out to me a point in USA history when it DID work?

Words are cheap - actions are what matters.

And no I am not by any means saying the Uk is vastly superior in this regard, indeed we're bloody regressing in recent years! - though not to the same degree as USA in my opinion.

It's just daft when the USA and certain of it's citizens and even leaders TRY to portray it as this progressive, egalitarian example to the whole damn world when many other countries see it as quite the opposite!

7Days · 08/11/2020 05:07

I just dont expect any country to be Utopia.
It's not possible.

What is possible is setting a goal and slowly making your way towards it. That is what the US has done / is doing, on a haphazard fashion but generally trending upwards.
They've just elected a black woman to the second highest post in.the land. A Good Thing, and a pity we are still in a world that it's a talking point. But we are, because humans are tribal and clannish by nature, we have to make a decision to minimise those traits and focus on equality. Its necessary to aim high, even more neccessary when your own nature is working against you. Otherwise there will be no progress at all. Trending upwards.

Less spectacular than becoming Vice President, there are the millions and millions who have made solid comfortable lives in the US, from all over the world. It worked for them.

People are still flocking there.
Simply because it's still easier to advance there than where they came from. My own relations included.

There will never be perfection but that doesnt mean we cant value progress and give credit where it's due.

Ifailed · 08/11/2020 06:43

US government provides healthcare for over 100 million citizens and spends over a trillion dollars per year to do so.

It's a start, now to deal with the other 231 million.

ivykaty44 · 08/11/2020 06:50

Their lack of maternity rights, employee rights, effective equality legislation etc is truly shocking! Decades behind most developed and even some developing nations!

But as previously stated their lacking in any union type activity therefore where the unions in the U.K. and Europe’s countries have strived for maternity, employment rights, health & safety and gained this so we have far more pleasant working & family life conditions these havent been gained in US

So there annual leave, maternity, paternity, employment rights are very different

Caeruleanblue · 08/11/2020 07:09

I don’t have a definitive answer, but it strikes me that being self-sufficient is a really core value of the US as a nation, ‘land of the free and the home of the brave’. People look after themselves, and philanthropy is a much bigger deal than in the U.K.

Yes, I think it stems partly from the pioneer spirit idea.

Here many think that as they are a majority white english speaking country then they are like us - they really are not!!
So I don't like that we conflate British issues with American - we are more like the Germans or French than Americans. We can't understand their right to bear arms - so let it go, it's what the majority there want. We hate Trump, but 4?% of Americans voted for him. BLM is so different there where police are armed. I lived in the US for several years, twice in that time I was shouted aggressively at by a policeman armed, I drove onto a street from an underground car park, the street had been closed (how was I to know) . My car tax disc was out of date, loaned car, angry police guy threatened me it was an arrestable offence (WTF). But if the police are armed you don't reach to get your phone out and start screaming at them and filming them like you can do here!!

There are many in Stroooong religions and I suspect people are drawn to them partly because they run charities that can help those in difficulties eg with medical fees. Trump was strongly influenced by the Catholic and Jewish lobbies - possibly others too. We are very argumentative about the rights of religions here.

I remember someone working 3 jobs to get their child through college. Not complaining just saying - as that is what you have to do.

Huge country - great variations. I didn't get to the east coast, maybe that is more like Europe.

Peregrina · 08/11/2020 08:41

But would communist Cuba have been any threat to them if they had just left them alone? Their interference started with Batista, which Castro and friends kicked out.

As for the Cuban missile crisis, which I am old enough to remember, I have only found out relatively recently that the USA had their own missiles based in Turkey, pointing to the USSR, so Kruschov was playing a tit for tat game. They managed by diplomacy to remove the missiles, I understand from both places.

Thewithesarehere · 08/11/2020 08:54

Why is everyone calling Kamala Harris an African American woman only? Is father’s heritage all that matters or is the African American the only background that matters? She is half African American and half Asian and I think that should be highlighted. It seems her mother raised her as a single woman and now her side of heritage and fight does not even get mentioned. Why this double standard.

Peregrina · 08/11/2020 09:32

I read somewhere (might have been the BBC) that her mother knew she would be considered as black in the town she was growing up in, with them not being many of Asian descent there, so she encouraged her to identify with them.

I hear that India is very pleased that a woman of Indian descent is VP elect. I wonder if the Republicans will start the birther crap?

DillonPanthersTexas · 08/11/2020 10:49

I worked in Houston for a while. It was a great experience but I was there under a UK employment contract so worked fewer hours and generally enjoyed far more protections then my US colleagues. It was actually quite depressing how few employment rights there were there, the presenteeism attitude, the hire and fire climate, the whole buying into the corporate bullshit culture, the expectation that you should socialise with work colleagues only, the disapproving looks when they find out you don't go to church etc. I was to an extent an outsider, I did not mind, I did not go to the US to live in a corporate silo and made great friends outside of the office. I got the impression many people worked with an undercurrent of fear, so they signed up to any old shite work threw at them just for a modicum of job security and to cling on to some second rate health care insurance. Many of my US friends simply could not get their heads around the free at point of use NHS.

"So if you break your leg playing soccar"

"Well, an ambulance will turn up, collect you, fix you up in A&E, you will get physio care after your plaster is removed......"

"what..... And that's all free"

"Well no free, it is paid for out of general taxation"

"hang on, you are paying for this even if you are not using the service"

"it's a tax, but most people see it as insurance, yeah some people may use the service more then others, but that is accepted"

"But why should I pay for something I don't use every day"

"95% of people have used the NHS just by being born"

Etc etc

RedToothBrush · 08/11/2020 11:25

History and collective social traumas.

America was founded by many puritans who had been persecuted by European states for their beliefs.
This particular split with Europe as you ended up with many of the most conservative religious groups establishing in the US and crucially due to being isolated by distances being able to maintain those same traditions throughout the centuries without being watered down by changing society.

Puritan values often centred around the idea that hard work is righteous and gods way. And that idleness lead to straying away from gods path. Add in the necessity for hard work in a pioneering lifestyle particularly in later waves of immigration and the movement of people westward due to population growth and shortages of land in Europe (which brought huge amounts of poverty and hardship) and the mentality of not tolerating people percieved to be lazy makes a bit more sense. The american dream of leaving the crapness of Europe (or later other countries around the world) in search of opportunities - usually associated with availability of land and you have the American dream. (on this note, you are now getting notions of how Americans want to protect their own opportunities - prevent immigration - just as availability of land is starting to constrict).

Independence centres around still being unable to assert their right to self determination and taxation without representation is central to this and encapsulated how the state was still controlling them in a tyrannical way. Those who moved prior to independence already felt that they had to do so because they were no afforded religious freedom so when King George started to try to tax their hard work without benefit to them nor even a voice it didn't go down well. So taxation is associated with State Tyranny and control.

Enter the Constitution which identified these conflicts and due to its written form and how central it is to American Identity has been reinforced in the centries since.

The first article is about the formation of the state but also makes a big point about the limitations of power of the state to prevent interference in people's lives (freedom from the state).

Article 2 is largely about the concept of creating a balance of power where the three pillars of democracy provide checks and balances in the limitation of power - the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary. One of the biggest fears around socialism is how this isnt present. If you look at communism there isn't a balancing of power. If you look at corrupt states in south America and beyond which have practised socialism you have a similar pattern. So anyone who has emigrated from these places has a certain idea of how 'unamerican' they are. Its only really in post war western europe that socialism has done well and hasn't over stepped that line in the same way. And that in itself is a product of the trauma of war and how the vulnerable in Europe were exploited / dehumanised. America didn't go through this collective trauma so doesn't value these ideas in the same way. Western European socialist tends to be notable in how it does include the three pillars of democracy but i think there is something of an American ignorance / arrogance which centres around independence and the instilled believe of throwing off the oppression of Europes tyranny and the perception remains that Western Europe didnt change in the intervening years.

Then you get the amendments. The first 10 all relate to the trauma of independence of the us. The right of freedom of speech and religion and the right to bear arms are the very first two. And if you look above about why American was founded they make a lot of sense. They have endured because of how the constitution and history of the country were intertwined. They encoded certain fears into the very fabric of the state.

You then get the trauma of the civil war and 13th Amendment which abolishes slavery and for many with this 'work hard' mentality there is little understanding of how despite having freedom those with slave ancestry have somehow 'failed' to thrive economically. (Structurial inequality doesn't feature in the constitution). The concept of racism doesnt properly feature for another 100 years and the civil rights movement . So again you've somehow got this legacy and enduring tropes of 'laziness' in the black community (despite all the evidence which was quite to the contrary) because of the way in which thinking was established.

Fast forward to the 18th Amendment and prohibition of alcohol. Again something could only really come out of puritan thinking which frowned on alcohol being sinful. That one didn't work out so well.

So for all the notions about the separation of church and state, the USA has always been deeply caught up in its religious foundations and never escaped that. Its always amused me that despite the supposed separation of church and state, that the President has always in my lifetime (i don't know how far the tradition goes back) says 'God Bless America' at the end of important speeches. Its a real oxymoron.

You also then have the 1950s and 60s rivalry of the super powers between the USSR and the USA which seeped into every facet of life. From McCarthism to Sport. Thats a legacy thats hard to shake.

We also have the dynamic of the rise of the Middle East and how American Imperialism hasn't entirely been neutral on the subject of religion (conscious understatement).

In the same way the UK has had a very different path and faced very different problems because of things like shortages of land and the process of the industrial revolution (pollution, deprivation, overcrowding, crime all require cooperation and collective action for the benefit of all to improve and reduce some of those problems). We realised that when you have people living in such close proximity you can't protect the health of middle classes unless you protect and 'improve the condition working class' too. (Though there is a certain amount of forgetting this which covid has pointed out in no small way). And then we had the hardship of war which promoted the collective effort of the people being important. (The US was able to maintain a individualist mentality Western Europe couldn't).

One of the issues in the US is now that we see outside influences and globalisation eroding the importance of the influence of religion which had been something of the glue thats provided a common sense of identity. And you are seeing the problems of overcrowded cities (which aren't replicated in small town America). So you are seeing a new internal conflict and crisis of 'american values'.

It doesn't often make sense to Western Europeans simply because we've not have the same 'lived experience' nor had the same collective traumas. But if you understand the history it does click.

user1471565182 · 08/11/2020 12:22

RIght this myth needs stamping on. The puritans were not persecuted. They moved to the new world because they wanted to persecute but wernt allowed to in the euro countries they came from. They did things like hanging pigs for adultery and all that 'goody' shit and the salem witch trials. Not a pleasant bunch, certainly not victims.

user1471565182 · 08/11/2020 12:27

In fact the pilgrims first went to Holland were they would have had extremely liberal religious tolerance for the time. They didnt like that.

user1471565182 · 08/11/2020 12:40

Im getting through a biography of Alexandra Kollontai at the moment (really well read on audible for those who have it and want something interesting) it covers her period of lecturing in the US to socialist groups- its really fascinating. This was around 1915/16 when the ruling classes hadnt yet managed to attach the stigma to socialism in the US. Also loads of people were first generation immigrants from russia, germany and often jewish and very attracted to radical politics. It went down very well in rural areas were she would have been chased out of town or worse these days. Even as late as the 40s there were plenty of socialist movements and particularly folk singers. It was absolutely the Cold war and McCarthyism and that whole 'unamerican' shit attached to it that changed everything, as well as the failure of soviet communism and the ease which the USSr could be shown as the pure outcome of socialism to the uneducated (and thats the case worldwide).

Roosevelt was considered a socialist by many at the time.

OwlOne · 08/11/2020 14:12

@DillonPanthersTexas it's weird isnt it how they see the nhs as paying for something tou're not using. No being glad it'd be there for vulnerable. And yet j7dging people for not going to church 🙄😮

Flaxmeadow · 08/11/2020 14:52

Why is everyone calling Kamala Harris an African American woman only? Is father’s heritage all that matters or is the African American the only background that matters? She is half African American and half Asian and I think that should be highlighted

Agree and her father isn't even "African American". He's Jamaican

There are historical, ancestral, and cultural differences between African American and Afro Caribbean. Its interesting that many African Americans don't seem to want to recognise that her father is Jamaican, almost as if they can only relate to her blackness in an African Amercian way, whereas her mother is called "Indian" or Asian. But then this is the confusing state of US identity politics.

ivykaty44 · 08/11/2020 15:01

"Well no free, it is paid for out of general taxation"

Its paid for through National Insurance payments

which are obviously national rather than private, US citizens pay into private insurance through choice
UK subjects pay into National Insurance from pay packet or self employed stamp

ivykaty44 · 08/11/2020 15:07

continue

which is not a choice to pay national insurance

but both private and national insurance are paid from some people that don't use the services and others that use it more. One is a private company out to make a profit the other is a. government which is not making a profit from medicine

USA health insurance is 3x that of an average NI payment from a n average wage. Added to which once you get to approx £50 k per year wage you stop paying any further contributions to the insurance. Therefore you don't get penalised for being rich and made to pay more Nino

user1471565182 · 08/11/2020 17:32

Black Jamaicans mostly have ancestors in west africa as well though dont they?

DGRossetti · 08/11/2020 17:49

@user1471565182

Black Jamaicans mostly have ancestors in west africa as well though dont they?
Well yes, thanks to slavery. But probably not a great way to chart Ms. Harris genealogy, to be honest.
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