What do you think of Emmerdale’s Downs Syndrome abortion storyline? *contains spoilers MNHQ*

[IntoP20]

I don’t actually watch the programme, but just read a headline that explained two characters (Laurel and Jai) are going to make the decision to terminate their baby with Downs Syndrome.

Is this damaging to new parents /expectant parents and those with Downs Syndrome themselves? Or is this a positive move to reduce the stigma around women being able to make choices about their bodies?

@Shmithecat2 never underestimate the power of internalised misogyny

In 2019 there were 279 abortions carried out after 24wks, less than 1% of all abortions for that year, and all were due to medical reasons. I can guarantee they were not done on a whim and there will a sad story attached to each and every one

Well unless you know all 279 women, you can't guarantee what they felt about it.

Why does there need to be a sad story attached? Is it more acceptable if the women feel guilt and shame about it?

There is no need to justify other women's decisions. Their decisions were within the law.
It doesn't matter if the women couldn't give a shiny shit about having a termination.

If it was no different to an appendectomy there would not be laws around it. It would not be debated and argued about.

There are laws around it to protect women. Because without the laws decriminalising abortion, women would be forced to get backstreet abortions and we all know how the ends.

There aren't laws around abortions because they're a little bit wrong or are on shaky moral ground. They should be treated as an acceptable procedure just like an appendectomy

Given that all 279 were carried out for medical reasons then yes, it isn't that far out to say there is a sad story behind each one. There will have been a decision making process between carrying the pregnancy for potentially a further 16 weeks despite the medical risks involved or terminating the pregnancy. I didn't say women should feel shame or guilt or that they need to justify their decisions.

This is not actually correct. If you read the ARC guide on TFMR, it does sometimes happen.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

If it was no different to an appendectomy there would not be laws around it. It would not be debated and argued about.

There are laws around it to protect women. Because without the laws decriminalising abortion, women would be forced to get backstreet abortions and we all know how the ends.

There aren't laws around abortions because they're a little bit wrong or are on shaky moral ground. They should be treated as an acceptable procedure just like an appendectomy

That’s not quite true. What I think pp was referring to, is that the law says you can’t have an abortion for social reasons past 24 weeks. That law is totally there for moral reasons surely?

Also, lots of people are saying if you are pro choice then you have to be pro choice all the way to the point of abortion for any reason at any point. I get your point of view and you are fully entitled to it, but the law isn’t as black and white as this, it has clear limitations on abortion for “social” reasons so I think all the posters saying they also have limitations and believe there should be limitations, aren’t making outrageous statements as some people seem to be suggesting they are.

I'm pro choice, any gestation any reason.

But, I also believe life starts at conception and abortion is killing a human, although a very very young one.

The reason I support abortion is because no child should have to be born to people that don't want it, or can't care for it. And no woman should have to be pregnant and birth a baby she does not want and does not consent to. Would I have an abortion, probably not. But it's not my right to tell other women what to do with their bodies and their lives.

Pro choice bang on about adoption, but who's gonna adopt all these babies. Some of whom may be ill, disabled or subject to substance abuse inutro.

There is no support avaliable for disabled children. I know I have one, and have been fighting for two years for help. We have discussed part time Foster care and, at a time of absolute desperation, adoption. We were told there is no one who would take him, and so we have no option but to keep him. So it's a bit silly to say just put the child up for adoption, it's not that easy. There is no where for these disabled babies to go.

If we had no abortion, but a shortage of parents, whether biological or adoptive, willing to care for and raise a disabled child - what will happen to all these disabled children? We would end up going back to the days of disabled children being thrown in homes for imbeciles. I'm sure no-one wants that, so surely if the parents can't look after or don't want to look after the child - it's better to just abort.

To me is a necessary evil.

I have a child with DS and I won’t be signing that petition. The idea of shutting down discussion and only allowing “positive” storylines makes me very uncomfortable.

A prenatal diagnosis is a huge thing for any parent and we shouldn’t make families going through it feel ashamed of their emotions or that they aren’t valid.

What we need is more education about what Down’s syndrome actually means in the 21st century - many people’s views are incredibly outdated, and that includes HCPs’ - not less choice.

I think this needs repeating from a few pages back :

Do any of you really think women in this situation (TFMR in late pregnancy) are anything other than utterly utterly heartbroken? imagine the physical and mental pain of going through that. But good to know you're sitting in your privileged little lives thinking how "barbaric" they are. Some of you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourselves.

I often wonder if abortion would be such a moral issue if it were men who could get pregnant. A ridiculous musing, I realise, because we'll never know. But I know for sure the laws surrounding abortion were made by men, even though it is an issue that wholly affects women. It's an issue dripping in misogyny. Even the idea that, should terminations for any reason be legalised to term, women will start flocking to the hospital at 39 weeks having changed their minds about wanting a baby. It's an insult to women.

I don't watch Emmerdale, but a storyline about termination of a ds pregnancy is, I think, acceptable and not shocking. It doesn't send a message that people with ds shouldn't exist. It sends a message that it's a personal choice. And good on them for not taking the easier, "morally acceptable" route.

I would love to see an abortion storyline free of hand-wringing and emotional baggage. The best depiction I've seen is in Sex Education. It was just something that needed to be dealt with. No guilt. No sobbing. No moral judgements.

Everyone who wants to discuss the ethical nuances of TFMR isn't a pro life fundamentalist.

I find it interesting to hear many points of view on this, and I have learned stuff from this thread from the people questioning things and the people responding openly, not from the people shouting them down. I'm not about to run off and picket Marie stopes as a result of what I've learned, if anything I feel more compassion for everyone involved.

@LindaEllen

I think people think too much about storylines, in that they have to be educational, or that the shows are somehow a lesson in how we should live our lives. They're not. They tackle tough issues, but could come from both ways - i.e. aborting the baby, or living with the challenges that raising a disabled child brings. Both are stories in their own right.

It's not an endorsement of any decision. It's not saying babies with downs don't deserve to live. It's just a story, based on a situation that many parents face, and a difficult decision that people do - and must - make.

The trouble is soaps ARE educational because of the platform they have. My concern over this storyline is that it further entrenches the view that “this is what you do” when you get a high chance result. And whilst 90% or more of women whose babies are diagnosed with Down’s syndrome do choose that path, the big problem is that even now in 2020, medical professionals on the whole are still crap at breaking the news and presenting an up-to-date picture of what having a child with Down’s syndrome actually means. It’s presented as a doom and gloom scenario and many MWs/doctors make the assumption that on receiving the high chance result the parents will follow the route of cvs/amnio then TFMR if the diagnosis is confirmed, and the tone taken in these conversations reflects that. I’m not saying anyone needs to justify their decisions, only that 90% plus is a huge proportion and I don’t believe the same proportion would choose that route if the news was broken differently and they were presented with up to date information about real, lived experiences with children with Down’s syndrome. As the doom and gloom scenario couldn’t be further from the truth. But storylines like this have the potential to affirm all these negativity. I just really really hope they do it justice, portray the doctors/MWs breaking the news sensitively, not assuming from the outset that termination will be the end result, and signpost and namecheck organisations such as the Down’s Syndrome Association and Positive About Down’s Syndrome as well as just ARC. That will go some way to addressing the balance, even if the storyline still follows them choosing TFMR....

@curliegirlie I couldn’t agree more.

medical professionals on the whole are still crap at breaking the news and presenting an up-to-date picture of what having a child with Down’s syndrome actually means.

I wouldn't say medical professionals are crap at presenting an up-to-date picture. Isn't it more that they are unable to say how severe a condition will be and therefore can't give an honest picture?

As the doom and gloom scenario couldn’t be further from the truth.

For some maybe. For others the "doom and gloom" scenario is absolutely accurate. And people are living it.

I too have a child with Down’s Syndrome who is a joy. As a Christian I am do not agree with abortion but that is an individual view. I do not judge other people for making different choices.

My husband and I supported his family member during an unplanned pregnancy, she had an abortion and we didn’t judge her we just loved and helped her.
I will not be signing the petition for the Emmerdale Story line as it just a distraction to the actual issue of abortion for Down Syndrome.

Our society and medical care has normalised abortion for Down Syndrome.
Your high risk result is bad news from the midwife, you are urged to have a termination. It is seen as a kindness to stop the child suffering but my child despite some health issues is happy and loved.
Abortion was not an option for me but during pregnancy I was asked 11 times to reconsider.
My teenage daughter answered a phone call from my screening midwife who never checked who she was talking to and launched into why I should strongly consider abortion.
My induction was planned and during this appointment it was pointed out to me and I didn’t have to go through with the pregnancy. At 37 weeks I was yet again offered an abortion.
In a later pregnancy the ultrasound technician pointed at my toddler child and told me she hoped I would be luckier this time. We are lucky, our child with Down’s Syndrome is awesome.
My pregnancy was high risk and so stressful as my choice to continue was not respected.
I am sad when people ask if I knew my child had Down Syndrome before birth the subtext is always if you had known surely you would of got rid.

At times medical care and access to services is difficult and we have to strongly advocate for our child.

The problem around pregnancy with Down Syndrome is not about the support or acceptance of abortion but the shocking lack of support for the 10% of babies with Down syndrome whose parents decide to keep them.

“They don't have a responsibility or obligation to do so but they reach a wide audience and could do immense good in educating and stimulating discussion on lesser known conditions that may well be affecting their viewers.”

Fantastic point - I think a TFMR storyline that centres around something other than DS would be excellent- it can help reduce the stigma of having to make that decision and be much more educational.

Soontobe6 Thank you for your story. I have had several people tell me similar and it is such a horrible battle to have at that stage of a pregnancy. My SIL has a cousin who had 2 pregnancies where the babies were acephalic. She wanted to go to term and then nurse then for a few hours/ days until they died. She had to battle to be allowed to do that but it should be a supported choice as for her, it helped her to grieve and meant the family could meet the baby and they had photos etc. Dreadful situation but should not be made harder by health professionals pushing for termination. There are also many stories of women refusing terminations and then having completely healthy babies which is even more worrying.
The dehumanising language used around preterm babies has a lot to answer for and anyone who has had a12 week scan with a wanted baby will be very clear that it is not a 'blob of jelly'.

@TheRogueApostrophe

medical professionals on the whole are still crap at breaking the news and presenting an up-to-date picture of what having a child with Down’s syndrome actually means.

I wouldn't say medical professionals are crap at presenting an up-to-date picture. Isn't it more that they are unable to say how severe a condition will be and therefore can't give an honest picture?

As the doom and gloom scenario couldn’t be further from the truth.

For some maybe. For others the "doom and gloom" scenario is absolutely accurate. And people are living it.

Nope, I stand by my original comment - they have a long long way to go before it can be described as anything else. The Down’s Syndrome Association’s “Tell it Right, Start it Right” campaign and training is starting to make inroads around how diagnoses are presented, and obviously there are some excellent doctors out there who do manage to get the tone right, but it’s a long, slow process before it filters through to everyone. I still remember how the consultant broke the news they suspected that my daughter had DS, just 5 hours after she was born. It was terrible. A scary list of medical conditions (when, as it happens, she was perfectly healthy) and a badly b&w photocopied bundle of leaflets from the DSA. It could have been delivered so much better. And this was AFTER she was born. I can only imagine how we would have taken a prenatal diagnosis like that and it scares me. This is reflected in the experiences of a lot of parents I personally know, including a fair few with pre-natal diagnoses who were asked repeatedly throughout their pregnancies whether they wanted to terminate, well beyond 24 weeks, when they had made clear from the outset that they didn’t. This is what we’re fighting against and why it’s such a thorny issue for the DS community.

In my local Down’s syndrome support group we cover a whole spectrum of kids, including obviously lots who have had to undergo heart surgery, have had bowel and feeding issues, are taking varying amounts of time to get mobile etc. etc. BUT that doesn’t mean the lived experience reflects the awful doom and gloom that is so often presented. Have a read of the stories accompanying the portraits on m.facebook.com/DownRightAmazing. Medical issues do not automatically equal a life of doom and gloom.

Trigger Warning If anyone would like my story, I terminated twins at 22 weeks not due to genetic abnormalities but poor prognosis following twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome.

We and the NHS did everything possible to give them the best chance. The odds of both being born healthy were slim and I had a living child to consider, after all if either twin was born with additional needs, he would be the one looking after them in the future. I made the decision on the Monday with Zero pressure to do so from the NHS staff involved. I could barely get the words out, never have I found it so difficult to one small little sentence.
The termination was carried out on the Tuesday. I lay perfectly still whilst the consultant injected salt to their hearts. This involved four seperate injections as placement was critical and twin one was awkwardly situated. It was not a quick procedure, it was most certainly not pleasant.
I then went to my local maternity unit where I was induced and had to deliver my babies, in pretty much the exact same way a healthy pregnancy would have been delivered.
I was kind of fortunate in that the delivery was pre-lockdown. Lockdown hit the week after, the funeral involved 5 people. I couldn't attend SANDS or other support groups. I couldn't even go cry in a friends shoulder with tea/wine. I craved hugs but couldn't have them. I could cry for any mother who had to go through this with doctors and MWs fully masked up and visiting reduced.
I can still see the injection sites nearly 8 months later. To this day I still think about the "what ifs" and how that small chance of two healthy twins might have happened.
I sincerely doubt any woman having to go through a tmfr at any stage will be unaffected for life. They definitely do not do it for shits & giggles on a whim. Most women by 12 weeks even have already pictured their baby in their life, pondered about names, thought about clothes, the nursery etc.

I am pleased soaps continue to tackle this scenario, to this day I hesitate about telling people for fear of judgement. I do agree with a pp that they could have left Downs out of this and picked any number of other conditions that would leave tmfr as an option.x

Curliegirlie, thank you for sharing your experience. There does need to be a campaign for more balanced information giving and genuine support of the woman's choice. It is ironic that the pro life campaigning for the woman's right to choose had gone so far that those choosing to keep their babies are made to feel unreasonable. How did we get to this?

Kiki275 thank you for sharing. That must have been heartbreaking for you especially with lockdown removing support systems so needed in these situations. I have been sitting pondering what to write but there are no words adequate so please accept a virtual hug.

@vdbfamily thank you.

I think what I was also trying to articulate, but actually failed in doing, was that it's never a straightforward decision. Every possible scenario will go through a mother's head. Reading through some of these posts it genuinely feels like others think it is all so simple; your baby has XYZ, oh okay we'll get rid then, here take this pill and it'll all be over then you can crack on trying again x

@GlummyMcGlummerson and @TheRogueApostrophe if it was my posts that fuelled the comment below I apologise:

Do any of you really think women in this situation (TFMR in late pregnancy) are anything other than utterly utterly heartbroken? imagine the physical and mental pain of going through that. But good to know you're sitting in your privileged little lives thinking how "barbaric" they are. Some of you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourselves.

I wasn't judging anyone and I'm pro-choice. I just hadn't realised what TFMR in late preg meant and, well, I hope you understand that discovering the reality to that and a termination when the foetus 99% of the time wouldn't have survived, was upsetting.

I wasn't labelling anyone 'barbaric' and of course, I realise now that if it's done it's going to be awful for the parents and very likely a case of a-rock-and-a-hard-place type of scenario. I was shocked but frankly would feel nothing but compassion and pity for anyone that's ever been involved in a choice like that. As I said upthread you couldn't possibly imagine what it would be like to be in that scenario; 'judging' is out of the question.

Theproblem is it feeds into the negative view. That one is better of aborting then having a child with downs. That somehow a person with downs is therefore less worthy/valued as say a child with out.
In reality a lot of people do abort. Their was a lady who was asked 15 times if she wanted to abort, pretty much up to the birth of her child. (she did not.) But it all buys into the idea that, that is what one is expected and should be doing. (But ofcourse it,s your choice... but is it if your being asked 15 times.). In reality it feeds inot negativity and Eugenics. (Is your baby could enough, will they be burden, ect ect )

@Kiki275

Trigger Warning If anyone would like my story, I terminated twins at 22 weeks not due to genetic abnormalities but poor prognosis following twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome.

We and the NHS did everything possible to give them the best chance. The odds of both being born healthy were slim and I had a living child to consider, after all if either twin was born with additional needs, he would be the one looking after them in the future. I made the decision on the Monday with Zero pressure to do so from the NHS staff involved. I could barely get the words out, never have I found it so difficult to one small little sentence.
The termination was carried out on the Tuesday. I lay perfectly still whilst the consultant injected salt to their hearts. This involved four seperate injections as placement was critical and twin one was awkwardly situated. It was not a quick procedure, it was most certainly not pleasant.
I then went to my local maternity unit where I was induced and had to deliver my babies, in pretty much the exact same way a healthy pregnancy would have been delivered.
I was kind of fortunate in that the delivery was pre-lockdown. Lockdown hit the week after, the funeral involved 5 people. I couldn't attend SANDS or other support groups. I couldn't even go cry in a friends shoulder with tea/wine. I craved hugs but couldn't have them. I could cry for any mother who had to go through this with doctors and MWs fully masked up and visiting reduced.
I can still see the injection sites nearly 8 months later. To this day I still think about the "what ifs" and how that small chance of two healthy twins might have happened.
I sincerely doubt any woman having to go through a tmfr at any stage will be unaffected for life. They definitely do not do it for shits & giggles on a whim. Most women by 12 weeks even have already pictured their baby in their life, pondered about names, thought about clothes, the nursery etc.

I am pleased soaps continue to tackle this scenario, to this day I hesitate about telling people for fear of judgement. I do agree with a pp that they could have left Downs out of this and picked any number of other conditions that would leave tmfr as an option.x

Big virtual hugs for you. It’s such a hard-breaking thing to have to do. I hope you managed to find alternative support, even if the usual sources were unavailable