What do you think of Emmerdale’s Downs Syndrome abortion storyline? *contains spoilers MNHQ*

[IntoP20]

I don’t actually watch the programme, but just read a headline that explained two characters (Laurel and Jai) are going to make the decision to terminate their baby with Downs Syndrome.

Is this damaging to new parents /expectant parents and those with Downs Syndrome themselves? Or is this a positive move to reduce the stigma around women being able to make choices about their bodies?

We need bingo cards when people compare abortion to rape and murder

@HBGKC - I'm not entirely sure why it would be anyone else's business to what a person does with their body and the fetus inside of their body, you're right the fetus has a better survival rate at 23 weeks than in previous years but late term abortions are few and far between. Luckily the law disagrees with you, do you really think banning abortion would do any good? I watched a documentary in India where abortion is illegal and if the baby was born a girl they literally just drowned it or buried it alive so it lost its life anyway in a more horrific way.

It's immoral to make someone carry a pregnancy to term when they don't want to.

Those bingo cards would be almost full already. All we need for a full house is someone to pop up and say that there are people using abortion as contraception and someone else to say that fathers should get a say too.

A mother I know who has a ds child sent me a petition against this story line.

Basically saying the ds community are not happy that they weren't consulted about the story line and that the storylime perpetuates old myths around ds.

I haven't seen the storyline and so didn't really feel comfortable signing it.

I don't think all ds children should be kept or terminated. I think it's a personal and individual decision for the family. Terminating is a valid choice as is keeping. So I can't really get mad about the storyline.

It is true that people with ds have much more opportunity and lead more independent lives than in previous generations. Partly because they are now actually allowed to acsess education and medical treatment, and the treatments and therapies avaliable are better. But ds is a broad spectrum and some children have very sever medical, developmental and intulectual problems. So no one should be judged for terminating, and I don't see why emmerdale shouldn't show the reality of choosing that option.

@Gancanny

Those bingo cards would be almost full already. All we need for a full house is someone to pop up and say that there are people using abortion as contraception and someone else to say that fathers should get a say too.

Also bonus points for religion too!

@GlummyMcGlummerson what I said after that was why not give it up for adoption instead of ending the baby's life and then giving birth. I was really clear that I was talking about very late in pregnancy when the baby would survive outside the womb and when the baby would survive with the disability. I don't understand why ending such a baby's life and then giving birth is any less traumatic for mother or baby than giving birth and then giving the baby up for adoption. Even if adoption is of course an imperfect solution @Gancanny

I am categorically not saying anyone should have their choice removed. We should be able to discuss the nuance of this without getting instantly combative. All I said was it's really upsetting and that it does seem to me in those circumstances that there are two lives to consider.

I disclosed my own history to make the point that I am firmly pro-choice. (I don't know how I could have been clearer that I'm not advocating removing anyone's choice.) And yet I still have misgivings. It's possible to be pro choice and still have complicated and painful thoughts about it. Please don't jump down my neck. We have to be able to talk about the details or we end up with a polarised battleground and no mutual understanding.

"You can't be pro choice with exceptions, you either believe a person has a choice or you don't. It's a very slippery slope to say "I'm pro choice but" - I learnt this the hard way, I used to be like "I'm pro choice but I think it's bad people abort babies because it's not the gender they wanted" I then watched a documentary and found out that people will straight up just kill the baby whose just been born because it wasn't the desired gender so I absolutely have no qualm with any reason to abort, it's entirely up to the person and those reasons are their own."

@Betty94 I respect your logic, whilst entirely disagreeing with your position. It is illogical not to permit abortions on the basis of sex-selection (and we all know it will be girls who are aborted for this reason) if the rationale is purely the bodily autonomy and "choice" of the mother. However, I think many people who would consider themselves to be pro-abortion would nevertheless bulk at this application of it. Likewise many people are not at ease with abortions at any stage (I.e. including at more than six months' gestation, and all the way up to birth). That's also illogical, though, on the above rationale.

I don't quite understand your point about sex-selective abortion versus sex-selective infanticide, though. Post 24 weeks (and actually much earlier), a recognisable baby is being killed. What difference does being just inside or just outside the birth canal make, logically?

Basically saying the ds community are not happy that they weren't consulted about the story line and that the storylime perpetuates old myths around ds.

She has a good point TBF. It's such a trite storyline. I think The DS community would be better spent challenging popular media in the stereotypes they perpetuate rather than limiting choices of RL women

I'm friends with many parents of down syndrome on my Facebook. My son is a trustee of a down syndrome charity... The parents are up in arms about it.... I signed a petition against the storyline.

I don't quite understand your point about sex-selective abortion versus sex-selective infanticide, though. Post 24 weeks (and actually much earlier), a recognisable baby is being killed. What difference does being just inside or just outside the birth canal make, logically?

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Inside/outside of the room is a pretty good line.

Anyone Ever noticed pro life people always philosophise but rarely offer alternatives or solutions?

@vdbfamily

There is also a moral discussion which we should continue to have and not try and silence.

What morals? Are you suggesting that it's immoral to allow a woman to have a choice about whether to continue or not with a pregnancy that would result in a disabled child?

Re the moral issue - abortion is healthcare and should be treated like any other medical condition. Nobody parrots on about morals when someone a has their appendix removed. The same should stand for abortion.

Glummy...are you really trying to compare an appendix to a perfectly healthy 24 week gestation baby/ foetus.....really ???

@Betty94 "it's a slippery slope to say I'm pro choice but"

I disagree. Things are not black and white. I hold many opinions with attendant "buts."

I like cheese but only when it's melted. I love JK Rowling but I'm not that keen on the Harry Potter books. I'm pro choice but I do feel there are two lives to consider when it comes to very late terminations if the baby would survive outside the womb.

To repeat myself, I never advocated for anyone's choice to be removed! I'm not saying the law should change. I was voicing my internal conflict about a difficult situation. Shutting down thoughtful discussion about this kind of thing with that "you're either with us or against us" approach is really destructive.

Is this damaging to new parents /expectant parents and those with Downs Syndrome themselves?

No. Is it damaging to anyone else when they hear about a healthy foetus being aborted? I don't see why.

I've never understand the idea that my (or anyone) terminating for Downs (or anything) is any comment on anyone else. I've heard people say things like "If you think its ok to terminate because of Downs you're saying Down's people shouldn't exist" but that's not true at all. I would just not want that particular downs foetus to exist, and if it was in body, that's my business and no-one elses.

Glummy...are you really trying to compare an appendix to a perfectly healthy 24 week gestation baby/ foetus.....really ???

But no one is terminating perfectly healthy 24wk foetuses willy-nilly, are they? The vast majority of terminations for unwanted pregnancy are carried out before 12wks. For terminations after this point the reason stated increasingly becomes for medical purposes, by the 24wk cut-off the number of terminations for unwanted pregnancy are less than 1% of all late terminations, after 24wks they are all for medical reasons.

No one reaching 24wks gestation is ending their pregnancy for shits and giggles but pro-lifers do like to kid themselves that feckless women are sitting around and leaving it as late as possible to end their pregnancy just because they fancied making the situation as difficult as possible.

[quote Doughnut100]@Betty94 "it's a slippery slope to say I'm pro choice but"

I disagree. Things are not black and white. I hold many opinions with attendant "buts."

I like cheese but only when it's melted. I love JK Rowling but I'm not that keen on the Harry Potter books. I'm pro choice but I do feel there are two lives to consider when it comes to very late terminations if the baby would survive outside the womb.

To repeat myself, I never advocated for anyone's choice to be removed! I'm not saying the law should change. I was voicing my internal conflict about a difficult situation. Shutting down thoughtful discussion about this kind of thing with that "you're either with us or against us" approach is really destructive. [/quote]
I wasn't trying to make to point of you're either with us or against us - I appreciate completely where you're coming from and it's fine to be pro choice and have restrictions for yourself.

They'll be people out there that completely disagree with your reasons and choice to have had a termination, doesn't mean you shouldn't have done it.

I just can't imagine anyone is having a late term abortion for fun, like you said they have to give birth still .. I wouldn't ever like to be in that position (and I might very well be in a few weeks) so I don't judge anyone's choice and what they decide to do.

Pro life shite dressed up behind people with ds who are high functioning. I respect that woman and she's a right to her opinions but there's only a very small section of people with ds used as an example of why abortion is so wrong.

No one ever tries to spin what a lovely life it is for those who don't manage so well and their families, which is the larger group. My cousin has ds and it's fucking miserable.

@vdbfamily

Glummy...are you really trying to compare an appendix to a perfectly healthy 24 week gestation baby/ foetus.....really ???

Firstly, abortions at 24 weeks account for less than 1% of abortions. But both are medical procedures and should absolutely be treated the same from a moral perspective. Obviously the actual proc sites are unalike, I'm quite at a loss that I have to point that out

*procedures not proc sites

Im pro choice but with limits, I too think abortion at 40 weeks is horrific, aswell as the parent i cant imagine how psychologically scarring that would be for the surgeon who had to do that to a fully developed baby. horrific 😔

@Betty94 I don't judge either. I have uncomfortable conflicted thoughts that's all. I did try to make that clear in my original post and people jumped down my throat. I also said clearly nobody is doing this for fun so I don't think we are even really in disagreement.

I say this honestly that I wish you all the best in whatever situation you're facing and would hand hold and support you in your decisions, no judgement. All I'm sending over the airwaves is love and solidarity.

@CommunistLegoBloc

Women can have abortions for whatever reasons they deem to be valid for themselves. No other questions are necessary, unless you believe in forcing women to give birth.

Some people with Downs will be relatively independent. Lots will require care and support to a high level for their whole lives. With the majority of caring responsibilities falling to women (at the cost of their own careers, life independent of family etc) it's okay if they choose for that not to be the case for them. It's okay too if they choose to take on the role. It is for no one else to decide but the individual.

All of this in absolute shovels full. Any awareness soaps or anything else brings to support these points, is so very important.

Trust me, it's a horrific thing to have to go through. Because I have been through it.

We were told our baby had numerous issues as well as DS. Heart complications (that's what started the process as abnormalities seen at 12 week scan), bowel problems. Professor at the hospital said the baby was unlikely to make term, and I could go into MC/stillbirth any time

We made the decision to TFMR. It broke my heart, we had been trying for 2 years. But I don't doubt for a second that it was the right decision for us, in our circumstances. Nobody else can see or judge your own circumstances....and Tbh unless you've been in the situation you don't know how you'd react. It was a horrendous time I wouldn't wish on anyone.

@GuyFawkesDay so sorry you had to go through that especially after trying for two years. Love to you. 💐