What do you think of Emmerdale’s Downs Syndrome abortion storyline? *contains spoilers MNHQ*

[IntoP20]

I don’t actually watch the programme, but just read a headline that explained two characters (Laurel and Jai) are going to make the decision to terminate their baby with Downs Syndrome.

Is this damaging to new parents /expectant parents and those with Downs Syndrome themselves? Or is this a positive move to reduce the stigma around women being able to make choices about their bodies?

I think the law stating you can terminate the life of a healthy baby in late pregnancy is absolutely barbaric

No such law exists.

All it is that if abnormalities or dangers to mother and/or baby are found in late stages of pregnancy, a doctor or patient can't be criminalised for deciding between the two of them to perform an abortions

I'm not sure if people are being obtuse or if they genuinely don't realise that women aren't marching into the doctors office at 38 weeks saying "I can't be raped being a parent now I want an abortion" and the doctor is saying "That's fine, it would be my pleasure". That scenario is not happening, anywhere. Stop talking like it is.

@hopeishere

to not have to spend the next 50+ years caring for a disabled person at the expense of their own life as they know it

For me this is the issue. As I said I have a child with Down's syndrome and they bring more joy, happiness and delight into my life than you can possibly imagine. I do not feel that my child is a burden on me or on anyone else.

The portrayal down syndrome can be so negative and I think that this one is disappointing for parents like me. Yes there are negatives but for me the positives far far far outweighed them.

for you, maybe. not for a lot of women. luckily those women have the choice to terminate, as you had the choice to continue

@theThreeofWeevils, I didn't know about this late term option until now so I haven't thought about it much.

I realise it's stupid, but I guess I thought labour was induced and if the baby survived it would go into state care.

@theThreeofWeevils

I did not realise they essentially killed a child

So what on earth did you think the process might have been? Because the whole end-point of termination is that there should not be a live birth.

As early as possible, as late as necessary.

I thought this as well. this faux pearl clutching and "oh isn't it just awful I had no idea they killed" can fuck right off. What do people think - a magic wand is waved?!

In fact I'll tell you what does happen - And yes it is horrific - for the mother (remember her and her life in this?). The baby's heart is stopped, Labour is induced. This is full on agonising Labour of k owing your delivering a dead baby. Complications can happen like a love birth. They then have to give birth, mourn their child, tell people, organise a funeral, and live with that forever.

Do any of you really think women in this situation (TFMR in late pregnancy) are anything other than utterly utterly heartbroken? imagine the physical and mental pain of going through that. But good to know you're sitting in your privileged little lives thinking how "barbaric" they are. Some of you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourselves.

God my earlier post should have said "arsed" not raped FFS

For gods sake stop with the aborting healthy babies at term bullshit. It does not happen.

The majority of terminations occur early. Only something like 1% happen after the cut off. In the vast majority of these cases it is for health reasons. Very late terminations do occur. I know someone who had one. She had a DS diagnosis and she had decided to continue with the pregnancy but further tests and scans had shown that her daughter would have had a short and pain filled life if she had even survived birth. It was not a flippant or easy decision. She grieved her loss as deeply as any other mother losing her child. Giving birth and at best having her child die in pain in her arms would not have been a blessing for anyone least of all her daughter.

Restricting all terminations to 22 weeks could actually increase the number of terminations. Less time to think and research is more likely to lead to a knee jerk termination. It prevents mothers from waiting until later scans to find other possible comorbidities before making a decision. But I expect all the anti choice brigade know this and it is just part of chipping away at our autonomy until it is gone altogether.

What's a fundie ?

Do any of you really think women in this situation (TFMR in late pregnancy) are anything other than utterly utterly heartbroken? imagine the physical and mental pain of going through that. But good to know you're sitting in your privileged little lives thinking how "barbaric" they are. Some of you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourselves.

This.

*not dismembered

Why was my post deleted, @MNHQ?

It's all been quoted by other people, are their posts going to be deleted too?

"Wow you REALLY need to do some proper research around how abortions are performed. Stop reading anti choice material. Full term babies are it dismembered. The auction method is only used for very very early stages of pregnancy. And the baby isn't poisoned either."

a) I didn't say full-term babies were dismembered
b) the suction method is NOT only used for 'very very early stages of pregnancy' - unless you call 3.5 months 'very very early'.
c) mifepristone/misoprostol are the medications administered in medical abortions, which cause the death of the baby and then its delivery.

Why don't you tell me how you think abortions are performed?

(By the way, obstetricians conscientiously objecting to performing abortions does NOT mean that they are sitting in judgement on women who've requested them. It simply means that they are not comfortable performing the procedures necessary to cause the death of the unborn child - which is, as we've established, the whole point of an abortion.)

No babies are dismembered.

3.5 months would usually be required to "deliver" their baby after being "induced" (though the fetus would be small and delivery is barely noticeable).

Foetuses are not alive/have beating hearts when they are "suctioned" if suctioning is used.

Foetuses are never dismembered.

I have worked in this field, I do know better than you.

@HBGKC no one is making you have an abortion. Don’t worry about it

I have two friends with DS children, one knew that her ds would have ds before he was born, one didn't. The one who didn't knows ds is in mainstream school, to look at him you wouldn't know he was any different from any other child, his features aren't that pronounced, he is a bright chatty boy, met nearly all his milestones & considering what his parents were told when he was born, that he would never be independent, never manage mainstream school, would always need carers, they are always very thankful that they didn't know his diagnosis as they have admitted that if they had they would have terminated the pregnancy. The other one whose parents knew the diagnosis is totally different, he had to have major heart surgery, one operation within hours of birth, one when he was around three & one as a teenager, he had to attend a special school, will never be independent, is unable to work, has communication problems, behavioural problems, is still having to be washed & dressed at 19. His parents are very worried about what will happen to him when they die should he still be alive then as his life expectancy is much shorter than normal. Two children with the same diagnosis but with very different qualities of life, with very different care needs. One set of parents wouldn't want their son to be any different to what he is & are glad that they didn't get a diagnosis before birth & the other who freely admit that if they had known the full picture of what their ds would have to go through would have chosen a termination rather than put him through multiple major surgeries & a life of no independence & problems. I was nearly 38 when ds was born, his dad was 43, we agreed when I found out I was pregnant that in view of our ages if our baby was found to have any conditions that could be diagnosed prenatal we would have a termination as we didn't think that we could cope with a severely disabled child as we got older, whilst ds is asd he is independent & will be able to lead a full life, I am always glad of this because if I had to go through a termination I know that I would not have wanted to getvpregnant again afterwards.

@HBGKC can you clarify your position - would you support abortion being made illegal in the UK? So women would be forced to continue with pregnancies and give birth to babies that they do not wish to have, and have no choice in the matter?

I am very worried about the general country wide lack of doctors willing to perform abortions later in the pregnancy.

Until I had a child I thought 23 weeks should be the limit. Now i know what being a parent is I support a termination at any stage for any reason. Having an abortion for "social reasons" at 40 weeks would be horrific. But not as horrific as the reasons that would lead a woman to find herself at this decision.

I've had an erpc at 3 months which is the same procedure as a medical abortion and there really is nothing but a mass of cells, even though I really wanted those to be a child. Fwiw I decided that if my first born had downs I would keep no matter what.

@Duckwit Abortion will never be made illegal in the UK, regardless of what my 'position' on the issue may be.

I believe in informed consent.
I think many people say they support a woman's right to choose abortion at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason at all, without stopping to consider that there may be other ethical considerations in play besides her right to bodily autonomy. I have tried to present some of these other ethical considerations here, including how abortions are actually performed (the details of which many people are unaware).

I think many people say they support a woman's right to choose abortion at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason at all, without stopping to consider that there may be other ethical considerations in play besides her right to bodily autonomy

There probably are, but the woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps every single ethical consideration going.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

I think many people say they support a woman's right to choose abortion at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason at all, without stopping to consider that there may be other ethical considerations in play besides her right to bodily autonomy

There probably are, but the woman's right to bodily autonomy trumps every single ethical consideration going.

Absofuckinglutely. How anyone, particularly a woman, can think otherwise it totally beyond me.

I would like to clarify my position too having been called a 'fundie' which I assume refers to the fact that I am a Christian. I hate that abortion has to happen but accept in some cases it might be the lesser of two evils. I do not force my view on anyone. If a friend decided to have an abortion I would support them and be there for them. What I must object to is people pretending it is" just a medical procedure" and that there are no moral considerations. If it was no different to an appendectomy there would not be laws around it. It would not be debated and argued about. At the end of the day a life is being ended, a heartbeat is stopped and yes, the procedure itself can be pretty brutal. I accept it is a heartbreaking decision for many but I also see that the more it is minimised and the more people talk about blobs of jelly and clumps of cells, it is a procedure that is often taken more lightly than it used to be and the numbers of abortions are far too high.
I wish they were not needed. I wish people thought a bit more before having unprotected sex, I wish women were not in relationships where they are pressurised into sex/ into abortions etc and I wish the life of an unborn child had more value .
But I repeat, this is a personal view and I am not forcing it on anyone ( despite being a fundie!)