Is my 3 year old THAT unusual?

[tomandmigg]

My daughter is 3y9m. Most of the time she is delightful and helpful. She has her moments though. She is very strong willed, and this can mean tantrums. They are getting fewer and lasting less time. If she's hungry or tired it can be harder to wrangle her moods. I wouldn't go as far as to call her "spirited" but I'll own that she can be a bit of a bugger sometimes.

She also has some sort of rare medical thing that the neurologists are looking into. She gets semi-involuntary shudders when excited or uncertain but she's not that bothered about them. One of her tics is running laps up and down unless redirected, and this has given her a bit of a wild reputation.

Daycare want to have a meeting as soon as we get a diagnosis for the tics. She went in for tests a month or so ago and we told them that we wouldn't have the diagnosis telephone appt until late October but that doesn't stop them from asking every time they see me (my husband apparently wouldn't know that information, so he doesn't get asked). All we know is it is NOT epilepsy.

The keyworker also tells me something negative every time she sees me. So, either my kid is an absolute nightmare or this woman isn't very good at serving shit sandwiches. The keyworker has asked for a meeting to discuss my daughter's diagnosis and also wants to talk about her behaviour.

I mean, is it THAT unusual for a 3 year old to lie on the ground and shout I AM NOT GOING!!!! from time to time? I get that it's annoying and I get that it makes everyone's life harder but isn't it part of the territory with early years? It doesn't help that I'm not certain if my kid does this almost everyday at daycare or if the keyworker is saving the moans for me because it's not my husband's job to hear them?

I guess I'm asking, should I gird my loins in case daycare have a suspicion that she has ADHD or ASD etc, or is this reasonably normal for neurotypical pre-schoolers?

The bit where you say one of her tics is running in laps.....it is not usual to do this. Nor for a parent to describe a toddler as having tics. Does that mean she has more? It could be this behaviour that they wish to discuss. Maybe they have noticed other things and just want to draw your attention to it. Go have a chat and see what they say. They probably just want to support your child the best way they can.

Mumdiva: yeah, the tics are unusual, we're waiting on the neurologist for the diagnosis of what they are. And I'm not sure if the running laps IS even related, it might not be.

SonEtLumiere: ok, that's good info about what is normal.
Schools don't start here (different country) until she's nearly 6, but I can definitely understand the daycare's point about not having the staffing to deal with this.

It's run by the borough council and as far as I know they don't kick kids out just like that.

Daycare ignore her, shame her and shout at her if that doesn't work. And that's fine: like you say, they have more than one child to take care of and they need to use the most efficient methods.

I talk her around much more quickly than they can because I have the luxury of being able to get an emergency banana into her as needed. I also say something like "I understand, you're feeling angry because we have to leave the playpark and you're having so much fun, I'd feel the same" so it doesn't descend into the crap that's going on at daycare. (Plus, it's very infrequent at home, maybe once or twice a month?)

If she does get to the point where it's a full on tantrum*, yeah, I talk to her afterwards about how it affects others and she says sorry.

You're ok sending her somewhere where she is shamed, ignored and shouted at?

Wow. Your poor child. A nursery that shames her and a parent that thinks that's acceptable

It sounds like she needs additional support the facility cannot provide.

Their observations may be helpful for you to report to the neurologist

They deal with dozens of children a week, and will have done for years and years, so will know better than you what is typical for a child of her age. I hope you can get the right things in place to support her; it sounds like you have some good strategies at home.

DS1 used to run laps as soon as he could walk, he's recently been diagnosed with Autism level 1 (Asperger's). He's 8.

I read yesterday that up to 25% of autistic girls also have seizures/epilepsy, so I guess this is something worth investigating.

Good luck OP.

Regardless of her behaviour, you should not be getting only negative feedback. As a primary teacher even the most challenging children have plenty of good things to say about them! If you have the guts I’d say something like “Did anything good happen today? Because I only seem to get negative feedback at the moment and it’s quite upsetting.”

I don’t have any experience of tics or her neurological symptoms.
The thing that stands out to me is that you’re happy enough to send your child to a place where they can’t manage her, shout, shame and ignore, That isn’t fine, not by a long shot.
You need to work with them or better still find an alternative placement for your child.

Daycare ignore her, shame her and shout at her if that doesn't work. And that's fine: like you say, they have more than one child to take care of and they need to use the most efficient methods.

No. No, that’s not fine. Not at all.

tomandmigg Is she in a PVI or a school nursery? I may well get flamed for this (Dons EYFS hard hat) but there is generally a difference in expectations/routine and boundaries between the two.
If she is not in a school setting, it might be worth trying to get her in one before she starts reception, so she. An be given the best chance to develop these skills.
I find that (excluding SEND) children settle very quickly into understanding the boundaries and routine very quickly at this age, where the setting remains very consistent with its approach. It also makes for a lovely atmosphere, conductive to learning as everyone remains calm, feeling safe and valued.
In that environment I would be concerned if a child at 3.9 was running around a lot indoors, as it would show lack of awareness of safety and boundaries, and I would also be concerned if she was having regular bouts of refusal, as at 30-50 months a child should be following boundaries and routines even if it is something they are less inclined to do.
We do however get new children to the setting who have come from other settings without the same level of consistency and high expectations and they are unable to do these things (yet) which is why I asked about her setting. It could be a sign for concern, it could be mixed messages through an inconsistent approach.
I hope they helps.

Oh I’ve just seen that you can’t get her into school.
I’d look around for a good private nursery then, if you need to work.
Generally the more exuberant the behaviour, the greater the need for consistency, as anything else can cause confusion.
It sounds as if she made benefit from sensory breaks/input. Things like popping a weighted backpack on her (so she gets feed back from it) rolling over/bouncing on a gym ball etc all help and can be a lovely way to bond/put down routine.

It's a different country, and they have a different system. You get the setting you're given and there's not much wriggle room for changing. Like I'm not overly thrilled that they're using those methods but what are they supposed to do? There are 20 kids in her room from 3-6, they do not have the resources to do something else.

What pisses me off is when the keyworker lectures me to use those methods myself, but that's another story.

I think ASD is reasonably likely given family history, so it wouldn't be coming out of the blue. That's interesting about ASD in girls, Malorie.

I will try that Vashta. It might be revealing because if she is doing this everyday then that is alarming and we need to get some extra support. If they're just whinging and it's very infrequent, that's useful to know too.

Ihatecoronavirus: it's a Scandinavian daycare (in Scandinavia), so it's pretty much mixed age, free play all day. The tv channels sent in hidden cameras into a few and it's basically Lord of the Flies in there. It like it hasn't occurred to them to introduce structure and have fewer developmental stages together. I'm not sure how much structure she'd get at school either, though. That's helpful info that this isn't age appropriate, thanks!

My DD has similar shudders you describe, usually when excited but also a lot in the car.
We have had a scan for epilepsy and the results came back negative, doctor seems to think it's a mannerism and says lots of children have strange mannerisms and not to worry.

Ihatecoronavirus: they're awesome tips, thanks

I would look for a different childcare setting as it sounds like they can't deal with her. How about something like forest school where they can run about as much as they want and it's less regimented?

I don't think running laps is typical 3 year old behaviour and probably cant be considered a "tic". I don't think running can be involuntary. Tantrums and defiance, on the other hand, are par for the course with a 3yo!

Boating: the neurologist is leaning towards 'paroxysmal dyskinesias' which shocked the shit out of me because I thought it was just, as you say, a mannerism that she would just grow out of.

Sorry I cross posted with you. That sounds like a terrible system!

Kit: I'd love a forest nursery. We chose this one because it's a sports specialist and they go on trips almost every week etc etc. There aren't any forest nurseries near us though, they're all in town.

When she's about to have a tic storm, she runs laps as if there's a prodomal stage, don't know if that makes sense.

So can you snap her out of it by talking to her or touching her? My DD sort of does it when staring off into space, talking to her usually stops it and she snaps back into the room.

Boating: not by talking. I can snap her out of it by singing a song she wants to join in on BUT then she needs to do a longer tic after. It's like she has a set number she has to do before she can stop.

Reading the whole thread, it appears that the meltdowns don't happen as often /aren't as catastrophic at home as at daycare. That's interesting because she obviously does have some control over them. I hope you get a diagnosis quickly and can find a safer and more suitable environment for her 💐

It's difficult to say at that age as tantrums are quite common in most 3 year olds. The running laps not really. Does she run in circles? My DS is 13 and suspected ASD and he often walks or runs in circles when stressed. Weren't too many signs at 3 - hands over ears with noise, just watching other children at nursery rather than playing with them, lots of licking things.

@DeciduousPerennial

Daycare ignore her, shame her and shout at her if that doesn't work. And that's fine: like you say, they have more than one child to take care of and they need to use the most efficient methods.

No. No, that’s not fine. Not at all.

This x 1000

It doesn't sound right op

I have no useful advice but am curious reading this as my 1yo has been tested for epilepsy following random shudder/ seizure type episodes and we haven’t been given any conclusions from any of the tests. I’ve suspected ASD for a while but doctors aren’t interested because it’s too early to tell.