Is my 3 year old THAT unusual?

[tomandmigg]

My daughter is 3y9m. Most of the time she is delightful and helpful. She has her moments though. She is very strong willed, and this can mean tantrums. They are getting fewer and lasting less time. If she's hungry or tired it can be harder to wrangle her moods. I wouldn't go as far as to call her "spirited" but I'll own that she can be a bit of a bugger sometimes.

She also has some sort of rare medical thing that the neurologists are looking into. She gets semi-involuntary shudders when excited or uncertain but she's not that bothered about them. One of her tics is running laps up and down unless redirected, and this has given her a bit of a wild reputation.

Daycare want to have a meeting as soon as we get a diagnosis for the tics. She went in for tests a month or so ago and we told them that we wouldn't have the diagnosis telephone appt until late October but that doesn't stop them from asking every time they see me (my husband apparently wouldn't know that information, so he doesn't get asked). All we know is it is NOT epilepsy.

The keyworker also tells me something negative every time she sees me. So, either my kid is an absolute nightmare or this woman isn't very good at serving shit sandwiches. The keyworker has asked for a meeting to discuss my daughter's diagnosis and also wants to talk about her behaviour.

I mean, is it THAT unusual for a 3 year old to lie on the ground and shout I AM NOT GOING!!!! from time to time? I get that it's annoying and I get that it makes everyone's life harder but isn't it part of the territory with early years? It doesn't help that I'm not certain if my kid does this almost everyday at daycare or if the keyworker is saving the moans for me because it's not my husband's job to hear them?

I guess I'm asking, should I gird my loins in case daycare have a suspicion that she has ADHD or ASD etc, or is this reasonably normal for neurotypical pre-schoolers?

Hi, my daughter really struggled at 3 with dealing with nursery and I was constantly being told all the ways she was naughty. The teacher definitely took a dislike to her and was very dismissive of me trying to sort it out. I thought DD was immature at the time but turned out to be ASD. I didn’t know any different when she was small as she’s my first born and you mention running laps which I thought was normal too.

Also, I think it’s relevant to tell you that standard peaceful parenting techniques weren’t really useful with her, they increased her anxiety. What worked was really super clear and strict boundaries whilst still sympathising, but being completely inflexible 😂

I don’t have any good news about the nursery though, we had to remove her. Getting a diagnosis has been helpful with being able to say to people in other settings, “we need these accommodations, can you do this please?” And then going forward from whatever answer they give.

Very best wishes.

Can you ask then for a meeting to discuss her behaviour and strategies to deal with them?

I would suggest that you ask them to document her day what was going on before the problematic behaviour started, how it presented, how staff and other children reacted and how it stopped. The aim being so that you can suggest strategies to them and also listen to how they deal with her.

Make sure your husband is fully on board and is at this meeting. Ask for a daily update to include what they think triggered the behaviour and how they managed it so you can see if they behaviour strategies are working.

I think you need independent help with this if you are to get the daycare providers on board with helping your daughter to have an easier time there. Ask on local facebook parenting groups for recommendations.

Can you ask then for a meeting to discuss her behaviour and strategies to deal with them?

I would suggest that you ask them to document her day what was going on before the problematic behaviour started, how it presented, how staff and other children reacted and how it stopped. The aim being so that you can suggest strategies to them and also listen to how they deal with her.

Make sure your husband is fully on board and is at this meeting. Ask for a daily update to include what they think triggered the behaviour and how they managed it so you can see if they behaviour strategies are working.

I think you need independent help with this if you are to get the daycare providers on board with helping your daughter to have an easier time there. Ask on local facebook parenting groups for recommendations.

What stood out to me is that they are asking for a meeting to discuss it.

You don't know the extent of the situation at school. Whether it's one offs or happens everyday.

Why don't you have a meeting and just compare information? You don't need to wait for the results. Try to work together and see what they say. They can learn from your approaches if they work. It sounds as if they just want to meet with you as a starting point.

Op I wouldn’t call it tough love at all. What I call it is scaffolding and making expectations very very clear. This is particularly important if a child may have asd.

Prevention and comforting together (which is what I was doing originally) were not helping my dd learn how to actually manage her emotions at all. This is why I changed tack in the end - only you will know what is right for your dd though.

What you are seeing is now age inappropriate difficulties with emotional regulation. I found I needed to consistently, calmly and firmly teach dd how to emotionally regulate.

We talked a lot every day at calm moments about how big children use words to say what they need, and they don’t shout. Every time she ‘used her words’ if slightly frustrated eg not when she was melting down, I praised her.

I then reminded every time she started melting down - use your words, I will be able to help once you are using your words. For her (likely to have ASD) this worked. It may be worth a try.

If it is clothing then the clothing probably needs to be changed. The setting will need to be flexible if it is eg their painting aprons and you Will need to provide ones she can tolerate from home.

Transitions can be handled with tools and a meeting with staff is probably needed - discuss visual timetables, verbal warnings direct to her, so nothing comes as a shock, Egg timers can help - give her a visual sense of when the activity will need to stop. For dc with these difficulties using the same wording consistently for the end of activities can really help.

Depending on what the doctor tells you about diagnosis, I would take the lead and ask THEM for a meeting, with a SENCO (or whoever is responsible re special needs).

I think you need to learn to be your own child advocate there. If there is something easy to do that would make things easy, then you should be able to ask/demand that to be in place.
You might also learn that her behaviour is much worse at nursery (many more triggers??). This will give you the opportunity to explain that she is nowhere near as bad at home. So what is going on? Aka put the onus on them to help find a solution there.

I also think that if you feel more in control of the communication with nursery rather than been the ‘victim’ of it (couldn’t find a better word there), you’ll feel better

Both my children used to circle when tired or distressed. Usually around me, which I found infuriating! But if I wasn’t there it would be around a table etc... my son has a diagnosis of ADHD and my daughter doesn’t but suspected. No autism suspected.

Neither of them do it now as teenagers!

I don't think she has control over her tantrums, I think your home environment is less stressful for her and in your words.. you cope for her. It is totally fine for you to cope for her. I still cope for my DD14 whole trying to help her learn to cope for herself.

Hazey: I think the keyworker thinks I've let her get into bad habits and I need to toughen up. Like, I'm not thrilled that this keyworker is doing 80s style parenting techniques on her but I'm not sure there are better options without extra resources. It's interesting, the first time the keyworker told me she shouted, she was sad about it, then she was more philosophical "not very pedagogically sound but it got the job done", then the next time "sometimes you have to, the other pedagogs can't control her but she knows I'm no nonsense". Interesting, right?
FatCat: Denmark but I'm not sure that's helpful.
Treestumps: I wonder what they're called here. I'm not sure but I'll ask at the meeting.
Bebe: Yeah, I have that down pat now, I think it's why they're so infrequent for me. I am not going to be surprised if it's ASD though, put it that way!
Chateau: Yeah, that's a good idea. I'll be meeting with them soon enough, the diagnosis call is this week. My husband is a weak link. Every time this keyworker has tried to teach me how to do 80s style childcare, he's like nodding and saying "yeah, we'll try that! yeah, just saying YOU MUST DO THIS, why haven't we tried that already?"
Jeremy: yeah, it was them who wanted to wait for the diagnosis. I guess they don't want to say "could it be AUTISM?!" and then the neurologist calls and says "I've figured it out: it's autism!" (as unlikely as that scenario would be), you know?
Onceupona: Yeah, makes sense. I'll give it a try. She responds well to calm post hoc problem solving sessions after we get into difficulties. I guess I'm transitioning from using the coping strategies I needed when she was 9 months and banging her head on the wall because I took a choking hazard from her, and what is age appropriate now. I teach middle school, and I've noticed that parents go through a similar phase of floundering a bit when their child goes from childhood to early puberty.
It's mostly socks, ridiculously. I'm looking forward to the day that her manual dexterity is such that she can sort the seams out herself so she's comfy. She can half do it and then she loses patience with herself. And you know, I had that too and my childhood was hellish because people thought I was "carrying on" but it was goddamn agony when clothes didn't sit right.
Visual timetables are a good idea and I was ready to introduce them at home and then she turned a corner, but maybe I could suggest them for where she's struggling.

Meuniere: that's a good tip. I was ready to be proactive about the diagnosis and how to teach them to deal with the neurological stuff and then this stuff came out of left field. I'll get my ducks in a row and take the lead with them.
TheLetterZ: oh man yeah, I'd be furious if she circled me! Glad yours grew out of it.
Chateau: true, I don't subscribe to the "she's trying it on" school of thought. The keyworker's evidence for this is when she snaps out of them sometimes or smiles afterwards. I don't think she understands early years psychology well enough, to be honest. I think she is genuinely upset and her feelings are real. They're inconvenient and they're out of proportion but she's not acting. That's older children who do that. Or so it seems to me.

My kid does have big outsized reactions sometimes when I drop off and it's her keyworker on the early shift. Like, she hides and she says "she's mad at me". So, whatever it is she's doing, it's "working" at the expense of her rapport with my child. Which is why I would never try to emulate it at home, it's obviously a time saving hack and not optimal childcare.

Does she have to be in a group childcare setting? Would a childminder with just a couple of other children be an option?

My ASD DS would not have coped with such a large and busy setting and would have had meltdowns fairly frequently. Far too much over stimulation. That might explain why she is better at home.

*I mean, is it THAT unusual for a 3 year old to lie on the ground and shout I AM NOT GOING!!!! from time to time?8
I was an Early Years Teacher for over 30 years, both Nursery and Reception. I think that is unusual although not unheard of and not usually more than once with any particular child.

@lifestooshort123

Reading the whole thread, it appears that the meltdowns don't happen as often /aren't as catastrophic at home as at daycare. That's interesting because she obviously does have some control over them. I hope you get a diagnosis quickly and can find a safer and more suitable environment for her 💐

No I don’t think it’s voluntary control. Having looked up Paroxysmal dyskinesia (if this is what it turns out to be), it seems to be brought in in stressful environments. The good news is that it seems to often reduce or go away with age.

I would try to find a different setting if at all possible. It must be awful to be treated so horribly by adults supposed to care for you. And for something, your dd possibly doesn’t really remember let alone have control over.

I wouldn't send my child back to a setting that shouted at and shamed her. Ever. It is wrong. It sounds like this is something she can't help, a physical urge that she's 'letting out'. Which is an additional need. She shouldn't be shamed for that!

No one can diagnose over the internet (or in nursery!) but the laps thing rings alarm bells for ASD to me (my four year old girl was diagnosed at 3.5). She doesn't run laps but she does engage in repetitive behaviours when she's anxious because she can't 'get' what is happening because of her ASD. They process and cope with things differently to neurotypical children.

I would perhaps explore an assessment for her. If there is something more to her behaviour then an early diagnosis is best it means she'll get the support she needs - which is not being shouted at and shamed!

Definitely do as VashtaNerada suggests and ask your husband when he picks her up to specifically ask how she was. It’s crap that they only mention it to you, it’s unlikely these incidents only happen to occur on days you pick her up. Either they think it’s only your problem which is rubbish or they’re just sounding off to you. If your husband specifically asks they will have to include him or admit actually she had a good day.

On the diagnosis I would speak to the manager or email and say as soon as you know you will inform them. Mention it is upsetting and stressful for the key worker to keep mentioning it to you at every pickup.

My son used to have the most terrible meltdowns when hungry. We used to live in dread of his blood sugar levels dropping. He was like a different child. When you say it’s easier for you as you can giver her a banana quickly, are the nursery aware of this? Does she need an extra snack or to have lunch earlier? They should be able to make these adaptations.

Toomany: I wish. That's what she had until she was 3. They don't really have that for her age. She was definitely a lot better there.
Captain: thanks, that's useful to know.
Mummy: they don't tell her off for the tics, they tell her off for flinging herself to the ground and giving out
Sunflower: I don't have that many options, unfortunately. It doesn't feel great that the keyworker is describing what she does with such pride and determination that I adopt these strategies myself. I could move her but I wouldn't get a choice over where and god knows if they'd be any better.
Dark: Yeah, good call. I'll mention it to them and try to get my husband on board with that. Sometimes they don't say ANYTHING to me and I complained about that. I was like "I get the impression that some of your colleagues think that because I talk with an accent, I don't understand what you're saying so you don't need to bother talking to me." I only have to assume no news is good news, on those days. It's bollocks, isn't it?

Jesus I always thought Denmark was quite forward thinking and enlightened when it came to their childcare and education systems. But this place sounds like its from victorian times.

I have a DD with autism and I can not stress strongly enough that they need to be in a supportive environment that accepts their difficulties, and has appropriate ways to work with them.

Children with autism are way more likely to develop complex PTSD from damaging environments than the average person, and rates of mental health difficulties, especially anxiety, are higher in autistic people for this reason.

My DD has trauma and school induced anxiety (school refusal) due to her educational experiences.

I do think, if you think your DD has autism, you need to strongly consider moving her from this place.

Dd was diagnosed with asd at 2, she has blackouts, tics and was uncontrollable when no cooperative at that age. Even as an adult she has her moments (but she's living alone in halls at university). Talk to the staff about if it's the right setting and what else your local authority can offer if it's not, it seems they are struggling

Chin: they're all like this, I think. Too many kids and not enough resources to meet their needs. School refusal is a big thing in this country, starts to make sense.

Movingonup: that's a good question to ask them.

It's mostly socks, ridiculously. I'm looking forward to the day that her manual dexterity is such that she can sort the seams out herself so she's comfy.

Wondered if you have you seen these seamless socks for children?
www.sensorysmart.co.uk/

It might help to reduce one little stress point.

Thanks, Tealady, I will take a look!

DS1 who is 9 tomorrow has something called stereotypies. This basically means he has lots of tics that all happen at once. He flaps his hands, jumps up and down and rolls his eyes and various other things too. When he was 7 his teacher was worried he was epileptic, and it can look like that, but he's always aware when he's doing it. We saw an epileptic specialist who gave us the stereotypies diagnosis.

His tics tend to come out more when he's excited, tired or stressed.
The environment your DD is in sounds rather stressful to me so I'm not surprised she finds it trickier at school than home.
Ds is academically totally fine, if not ahead in some areas. He's extra competitive and gets very frustrated at times when playing team sports but is learning to deal with this as he gets older.

Good luck OP. I hope a diagnosis is found and things can be put in place to help your DD.

disaster: Sounds really similar sort of movements. The neurologist said she thought it might be that but since she has had it as a baby, it's all very mysterious. It usually only shows up at age 4. They want to do an MRI scan now out of curiosity.
Interesting that it is stress that can bring it out in other people. She gets them more when she's fascinated, uncertain or impatient. AKA "stressed", right?

Youtube it op, complex motor stereotypies. I'm about 90% my 3yo DS has it. It's not proving to be an issue at school so far but he comes home and flaps/ticks/stims for ages.