Is my 3 year old THAT unusual?

[tomandmigg]

My daughter is 3y9m. Most of the time she is delightful and helpful. She has her moments though. She is very strong willed, and this can mean tantrums. They are getting fewer and lasting less time. If she's hungry or tired it can be harder to wrangle her moods. I wouldn't go as far as to call her "spirited" but I'll own that she can be a bit of a bugger sometimes.

She also has some sort of rare medical thing that the neurologists are looking into. She gets semi-involuntary shudders when excited or uncertain but she's not that bothered about them. One of her tics is running laps up and down unless redirected, and this has given her a bit of a wild reputation.

Daycare want to have a meeting as soon as we get a diagnosis for the tics. She went in for tests a month or so ago and we told them that we wouldn't have the diagnosis telephone appt until late October but that doesn't stop them from asking every time they see me (my husband apparently wouldn't know that information, so he doesn't get asked). All we know is it is NOT epilepsy.

The keyworker also tells me something negative every time she sees me. So, either my kid is an absolute nightmare or this woman isn't very good at serving shit sandwiches. The keyworker has asked for a meeting to discuss my daughter's diagnosis and also wants to talk about her behaviour.

I mean, is it THAT unusual for a 3 year old to lie on the ground and shout I AM NOT GOING!!!! from time to time? I get that it's annoying and I get that it makes everyone's life harder but isn't it part of the territory with early years? It doesn't help that I'm not certain if my kid does this almost everyday at daycare or if the keyworker is saving the moans for me because it's not my husband's job to hear them?

I guess I'm asking, should I gird my loins in case daycare have a suspicion that she has ADHD or ASD etc, or is this reasonably normal for neurotypical pre-schoolers?

I don’t know about the tics, but the behaviour doesn’t sound that unusual...however maybe that’s because my four year old will have multiple tantrums/refusals a day... he hasn’t been diagnosed with anything (yet). Hope you get some help with the tics soon.

I’d be reluctant to say that if there’s more of them at school and less at home that it means she has some control over them, especially if there’s potentially ASD in the mix. When our son was this age, nursery was far, far harder for him than home. It was always a shock to hear what they had to say about him. EYFS was the same. If it really is a Lord of the Flies type situation and she’s potentially on the younger side of the children there, she may be struggling to cope. That won’t be helped by their frankly absolutely crap approach to handling her.

Could the Dr write you a letter outlining what s/he is considering and stressing that diagnosis takes time? In every setting we’ve been in, the aim has been to meet the needs rather than the diagnosis, so it’s been less of a big deal. Good luck.

Op I think I'd try to move her daycare. It sounds to me they aren't helping and if anything they are making her worse.

I deeply regret not moving my eldest. Every day picking him up was negative feedback to the point I dreaded it, particularly from one member of staff. My youngest goes to a different nursery and they always have something positive to say to everyone.

Op, I had a 3 year old who had panicky meltdowns at nursery but almost ever at home. She is now ten and still quirky but mostly behaves well at school. SALT recently described her as 50:50 whether we should press for an ASD dx.

IME most dc that age will comply 90% of the time at a childcare setting but mine wouldn’t. We had very few meltdowns at home.

I tackled ours on two fronts. One, exploring with nursery what the triggers were and it seemed to be mostly around transitions. We asked them to use a visual timetable and give verbal warnings between change of activity. This really helped.

Two, I switched my approach from a gentle parenting approach focused on understanding the emotion behind the panic to one which emphasises that the meltdowns were never ok. I would also be sympathetic and kind. But I would say “dd, I don’t want to hear shouting. Use your words. If you use your words we can talk abut this and sort it out. No, use your words” Within a few months I had stopped the (rare) meltdowns at home altogether and on the rare occasions they did ok, just saying calmly ‘use your words’ would halt them immediately. Cracking them at home was key to cracking them in daycare too. I asked them to use the same approach - calm and firm “use your words, x” “we can sort this out together if you use your words”

I have to say I experience pretty limited success in getting nursery to collaborate with me! But there is so much you can do at home.

My dd used to run around when she was reading - read a page, run a lap, but this stopped age 4. She had tics occasionally at this age, they went but do recur sometimes.

We also removed dd from one negative nursery setting where they said horrible things to her, which she repeated back to me. IME what worked best for dd was a more structured setting with staff who were consistent, very kind and fairly firm.

It’s not typical. Most children at that age are fairly compliant with daycare adults. Remember that the staff see lots of children at that stage and tend to pick up on children that perhaps have something else going on. They also have to ensure the safety of all the children and can’t designate one staff member to one child unless they have special funding for that child via a diagnosis (U.K.)

Oh and for you, because I found this time hugely stressful. The continual negativity from the first nursery setting every pick up and parents consultation was so depressing. She’s gone on to be quite able at school and is musical, funny and a delight (with some conversational and social quirks!!

It might be worth seeing a SALT actually, even if her language seems good as dd had struggles in pragmatics that meant she couldn’t say what she wanted to express socially,

it's a Scandinavian daycare (in Scandinavia), so it's pretty much mixed age, free play all day. The tv channels sent in hidden cameras into a few and it's basically Lord of the Flies in there. It like it hasn't occurred to them to introduce structure and have fewer developmental stages together.

Yikes, that's very different from the Scandinavian daycares I have experienced (also in Scandinavia). Maybe the daycare just isn't very good?

I think the daycare sounds awful.

I wanted to add that we moved our dd from a daycare which has free flow in a large area including Forrest school and four different indoor rooms for 60 kids but where staff seemed rigid and not to be very kind to one which had less flashy facilities and only 25-30 kids in a smaller physical environment and she found that much more manageable and less intimidating and overwhelming. Staff were kinder. We didn’t get the level of home - nursery collaboration we’d hoped for though!

I appreciate moving her may not be that easy though where you are

Have you looked into 'complex motor stereotypies' for the ticks?

You need to change her childcare setting, they sound atrocious and not able to care for her adequately.

Please google infant reflexes not going dormant. My daughter had similar shudders went a baby epilepsy ruled out. Asd ruled out at 12. But has infant reflexes not gone dormant.

I have no comment on the neurological symptoms but I send my DS 3 to school nursery and his key worker is literally the most negative person I've ever met. The other teachers are lovely and always say nice things but this teacher just has nothing nice to say to any of the kids. She also never mentions anything to the dads. I'm going to keep him there because it's his school allocation but if it was private nursery I'd move him in a heartbeat.

IMO they are probably pushing you for information because if they get an SEN diagnosis then they can get more money from the government. So it probably isn't as urgent as they are putting onto you about it, because it sounds like whatever she is doing is manageable for all of you, but they are putting pressure on you for their own wants.

My DS1 used to flap when excited (he's 10 now, and still, if watching a particularly exciting youtube video will kinda stand on the chair and his hands start flapping). He used to spin rather than run laps, and yes, I have picked him up from the middle of the road where he had decided half-way across that he wasn't going to carry on.

He also is extremely affected by his blood sugar - he'll get unbelievably grumpy, tearful, angry, then one small snack later and it's like night and day. I actually carry glucose tablets (we call them grumpiness tablets) so that if we're out and about and it hits I can turn him around. Now he's older he's getting better at recognising it happening and fixing it before it escalates, but it took work - perhaps that's all that's going on with your child.

DS1 has been through Occupational Therapists, and neuro exams, and he's just dyspraxic, there doesn't seem to be anything else going on - he found the spinning stimulating (which is interesting, because slides and swings were terrifying for him).

My other child also had some doozies, is very stubborn, but doesn't seem to have the irrational bad mood that DS1 has, and has always been much more capable of just sitting still - DS2 can sit in the car hand just silently look out of the car - DS1 just can't - he'll be burbling away or talking to me, and completely missing whatever is out of the window.

Bella: I should know this week what they think it is. I'll update the thread if that's helpful.
Debra: right? it's so hard to know if they're normal without experience of hundreds of children their age
Autumn: I had a horrible feeling she'd struggle for these reasons but there aren't any better ones, everyone's budget is in the same shitter. I honestly thought telling them the exact date of the diagnosis telephone appt would get them to stop asking but it didn't! I'll have an answer this week.
Bikingbear: It's really tough, isn't it? Maybe there are better ones out there but there's no guarantee I'd get into one. You get what you're given here. I'm hoping we move house soon and get another spin of the wheel of fortune.
Onceuponatimethen: yeah, it seems to be transitions and uncomfortabl clothing for her. I wonder if it's Sensory Processing Disorder but they literally have never heard of that here. I wonder how much they would do for her, their staffing is ridiculous in the afternoons (when she's more likely to be triggered because she's tired) I like the tough love approach and have been exploring it, but most of what I do is prevention.

I wonder sometimes if I'm doing her coping FOR her and should stop or if that's something to do when she's older.

It sounds like nursery is making her behaviour worse tbh.

And some of the things you do might not be manageable on a nursery setting. But some, like giving her a banana, easily is.

Do they have anything like a SENCO there?

Btw, dc1 was also extremely sensitive to low blood sugar. Which meant I ALWAYS had a snack or something with me whenever we went out (he was probably about 8yo when I stopped been as careful)
The nursery might not be bale to accomodate everything but I’m pretty sure they should be able to give her a snack.

You say her tic is semi-involuntary, implying you think it’s partly voluntary? It could be a ‘stim’ rather than a tic, which are common and harmless in ASD. The running could also be sensory seeking behaviour, so another ‘stim’. She’d likely benefit from being assessed for ASD since it could explain both the tics and the ‘bad’ behaviour in the daycare environment when she’s lovely at home. Girls tend to be better at masking symptoms of ASD so might not have classic signs like language difficulties.
I hope you find a solution, it doesn’t sound like the daycare is right for her in any case .

Kettling: I saw some hidden camera stuff on tv from another town and it was appalling. I don't think they're that unusual and are on the better side?
Atoad: Yeah, that's what I thought they were but the neurologists were straight onto paroxysmal dyskinesias when they saw videos of her. They've done a 48 hour round of videoing her while she had an EEG helmet on and they'll get back to us. I don't know.
Cosy: Probably!
Ittakes: ooh that's interesting, I'll have a poke around the internet
Treestumps: when her childminder brought it up a few years ago, I was like "yeah, she's stimming, right?" she sounds a lot like your eldest, actually.

@KoalasandRabbits DS1 has exactly the same traits as your DS: hands over ears, licking, running in circles. He's just been diagnosed with Asperger's aged 7.

Meuniere: right? blood sugar is an easy fix, at this age, right?! They must have a SENCO but I have no idea who it is.
Tiger: as in, she can stop them but she can't fake them. I guess it's closest to a sneeze type level of voluntary control. I think she has ASD but I'm worried that if I label her this system won't support her, it'll just let unprofessional people just go "ahh well, she's a diagnosis-child, innit" (I'll get her assessed but it's a concern as they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory so far)

Imo, and from whaf youve written, it does sound to me as though her behaviour, outside of the neuro symptoms, may not be typical. Working with children of this age, I'd say unless there is something else going on, it is unusual to see a full on meltdown level of distress - esp if it's triggered by certain things. Until lockdown I worked in a mainstream preschool, mainly as a 1-1 for children with complex needs, and my ds has complex needs. Obviously that's only from what you've posted, and even if you work with a child in an ey setting you wouldnt be able to diagnose or ascertain it is a particular thing.

Do you think the setting are hoping for more support so she could have a 1-1, these meltdowns in combination with the running and neuro symptoms, would definitely lead us as a setting to be discussing this as possibility with you. I have worked with several children who run as part of their additional needs, and it can be pretty full on and definitely more difficult to manage with other children (especially with a wide age range)

Reading the whole thread, it appears that the meltdowns don't happen as often/aren't as catastrophic at home as at daycare. That's interesting because she obviously does have some control over them.
Its quite common for children to present in one way in a different environment and a different way at home....The fact she doesn't have as many or as severe meltdowns with you is probably due to a whole raft of reasons, but also largely (i supsect) because when she is with you, her needs are met.

It sounds as though the setting aren't communicating very well with you, or supporting your dd very well. ignore her, shame her and shout at her if that doesn't work. And that's fine...except it really isn't fine at all, it is obviously not working for your dd2, it is not supporting her, and whether there are other children needing their attention is not the point - each child deserves to have their developmental needs met to the best of their ability and through working in partnership with you and outside professionals with your dd at the heart of it all.

What country are you in OP? There's mumsnetters all over the world. You may get better advice if we know where you are.

Hands over ears? DS1 does that too - he hates loud, or continuous noises.

She's only 3, but is there any way you can get her to an Occupational Therapist? DS1 went to one when he was 6 for a year, and it made a real difference to him, and gave us ideas for things to help him keep on the straight and narrow (for example, getting him to do some heavy work before asking him to sit down and write). We moved away, and I've not managed to find another OT as good as that first though, so it's probably hit and miss.

I can understand your labelling worries it's a fine line between getting the help so the child can achieve, and using that diagnosis to excuse poor performance rather than help them isn't it.