So it's illegal to teach the idea of white privilege as fact now. I guess that's the same for male privilege, class privilege etc

[chomalungma]

It's got to be hard to discuss racism, sexism, class advantage to pupils and to discuss how that can be overcome without directly teaching about white privilege, male privilege, class privilege as fact.

Maybe they could offer alternative views?

This is the debate on Black History Month - which is a fascinating read

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-10-20/debates/5B0E393E-8778-4973-B318-C17797DFBB22/BlackHistoryMonth

And the Government view

"Lots of pernicious stuff is being pushed, and we stand against that. We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt. Let me be clear that any school that teaches those elements of critical race theory as fact, or that promotes partisan political views such as defunding the police without offering a balanced treatment of opposing views, is breaking the law"

So parents can discuss it with their children, but teachers can't discuss it

[Devlesko]

I don't think it should be named, it's coming from the wrong angle imo.
Nobody should have to experience racism, that's the problem. Everything else is irrelevant apart from educating kids in the history how awful we have been to each other.

[jdoejnr1]

@Stompythedinosaur

I mean, there is a perfectly adequate quantity of research papers to support the existence of white privilege. It is absolutely a part of my completely evidence-based therapy qualifications.

Not mentioning it is a political stance also.

There is no evidence to support CRT or 'white privilege' to the extent CRT suggests.

[jdoejnr1]

@chomalungma

Half the backlash about modern feminism is from men kicking off about how shit they have it but no one cares. That ‘Jess Phillips laughing about male suicides’ (edited) video that went round is a good example

I should have said little push back from women. In general, the idea of male privilege on MN seems to be accepted.

Yet white privilege isn't. By the same people who accept male privilege is a thing.

That takes some cognitive dissonance.

The idea of male privilege and white privilege stems from the same postmodern principles which have spawn Queen studies and fat studies. What is ironic is all the arguments the trans activists are putting forward are rooted in the same arguments radical feminist were using decades ago.

[jdoejnr1]

Queer studies not Queen!

[SarahAndQuack]

The idea of male privilege and white privilege stems from the same postmodern principles which have spawn Queen studies and fat studies. What is ironic is all the arguments the trans activists are putting forward are rooted in the same arguments radical feminist were using decades ago.

This is just factually incorrect, I think?

CRT dates from at least the late 80s, and it's explicitly rooted in arguments made centuries before that.

[jdoejnr1]

@SarahAndQuack

The idea of male privilege and white privilege stems from the same postmodern principles which have spawn Queen studies and fat studies. What is ironic is all the arguments the trans activists are putting forward are rooted in the same arguments radical feminist were using decades ago.

This is just factually incorrect, I think?

CRT dates from at least the late 80s, and it's explicitly rooted in arguments made centuries before that.

Which part is in correct? CRT began in earnest in the early 1970s with Derrick Bell. The underlying arguments have been used in many different grievance studies.

[SarahAndQuack]

Bell's work is an ancestor to the academic movement. But so are Lorde, Douglass, Truth and others.

These aren't 'grievance studies' unless you are so stupid that you think being enslaved or murdered en masse is a 'grievance' rather than a crime against humanity.

[jdoejnr1]

@SarahAndQuack

Bell's work is an ancestor to the academic movement. But so are Lorde, Douglass, Truth and others.

These aren't 'grievance studies' unless you are so stupid that you think being enslaved or murdered en masse is a 'grievance' rather than a crime against humanity.

I agree. However, it is Bell's work which is often sighted as the start of the modern wave of the work. A also have to disagree somewhat with your interpretation of my use of the phrase grievance studies. I find it hard to belive that "Fat studies" has a history of slavery and murder.

[SarahAndQuack]

I think you have somehow misread me.

I pointed out that the work of Bell, Lorde and Truth is not 'grievance studies'. What on earth does that have to do with 'fat studies'?

[jdoejnr1]

@SarahAndQuack

I think you have somehow misread me.

I pointed out that the work of Bell, Lorde and Truth is not 'grievance studies'. What on earth does that have to do with 'fat studies'?

I said their principles had been used in grievance studies, not that their work was. The then gave an example of grievance studies. I think we both agree.

[SarahAndQuack]

No, you didn't. You said that the ideas of 'male privilege' and 'white privilege' stemmed from the same postmodernistm principles that resulted in 'grievance studies'.

Now you are saying you said that the principles of these theorists were used in grievance studies.

Which is it? And how exactly is your putative timeline of influence working? Because it seems to me you want to imagine that everything you dislike (queer studies, fat studies, CRT) postdates radical feminism. I'd love to see how that could possibly be the case.

[jdoejnr1]

@SarahAndQuack

No, you didn't. You said that the ideas of 'male privilege' and 'white privilege' stemmed from the same postmodernistm principles that resulted in 'grievance studies'.

Now you are saying you said that the principles of these theorists were used in grievance studies.

Which is it? And how exactly is your putative timeline of influence working? Because it seems to me you want to imagine that everything you dislike (queer studies, fat studies, CRT) postdates radical feminism. I'd love to see how that could possibly be the case.

Okay. You've made some serious leaps from what I said to what you think I said, perhaps re-read it and try again. Many of the current ideas on stem from postmodernism. Of course the ideas of some of the concepts were there before but you see the coming together of the core principles in the 60s and 70s. Then it starts to go main stream in the 90s with off shoot using the same principles to underpin arguments including queer studies and continuingtill you get the likes of fat studies having their own journal. I'm not sure how thats controversial.

[SarahAndQuack]

Ideas that predate postmodernism cannot possibly stem from postmodernism. People have been objecting to racism for centuries; CBT explicitly acknowledges that.

It has fuck all to do with queer studies, or to do with fat studies having its own journal.

That's not 'controversial'. It's just utterly confused.

Of course, if you can actually explain to me how people fighting racism in 1900 were secretly planning for a fat studies journal in 2020, I might be convinced. Feel free ...

[jdoejnr1]

@SarahAndQuack

Ideas that predate postmodernism cannot possibly stem from postmodernism. People have been objecting to racism for centuries; CBT explicitly acknowledges that.

It has fuck all to do with queer studies, or to do with fat studies having its own journal.

That's not 'controversial'. It's just utterly confused.

Of course, if you can actually explain to me how people fighting racism in 1900 were secretly planning for a fat studies journal in 2020, I might be convinced. Feel free ...

And now you're conflating 2 very different issues. By your logic modern medicine such must date back centuries too.

CRT uses the principle of lived experience over modern scientific methodology to prove its points. They even say that asking for prove is racist. This principle has been used for the other studies I've mentioned. So flawed is the technique that Mein Kamp was able to be peer reviewed and accepted as good academia as did a paper called "Human Reactions to Rape Culture and Queer Performativity at Urban Dog Parks in Portland, Oregon." about dog-on-dog rape and what it means for feminism and queer theory which suggested "rape culture" among animals at the dog park is a useful vehicle for understanding rape among human beings. This was a completely made up yet was peer reviewed and judged to be an exceptional and groundbreaking piece of work. Challenging CRT is not saying their is no racism just that not every interaction is based on some form of racism.

[jdoejnr1]

I would recommend a book called Cynical Theories which explains it much better than I can on MN.

[NoToMisogyny]

Since when is male privilege or straight privilege taught in school? We don’t teach boys that they are inherently privileged and should feel guilty about it. We don’t teach straight people that either.

And when has racism ever only related to white people? I don’t necessarily believe other races can be racist towards white peoples as it’s about the power structure. But in other places around the world other races are seen as subhuman, by people who are not white. Indians/ Filipinos in Dubai as just one example. Also China and black people. That’s nothing to do with white people.

Critical race theory is evil. It will do nothing but foster both racism and resentment. Telling people they bear some sort of original sin because of the colour of their skin is a monstrous thing to do.

Douglas Murray ‘Madness of Crowds’ is great on all of this.

[PercyKirke]

What about the idea of straight privilege? Is that political opinion?
Male privilege? Is that political opinion?

Actually, yes, they are.

[AbsentmindedWoman]

MN amazes me when it comes to race. Widespread acceptance that male privilege exists, widespread denial that white privilege exists. People show an excellent understanding that male privilege does not mean all men are better off in all ways than all women, yet seem to really struggle with applying the same understanding to issues around race. It's really odd to see.

Yes, this.

And able-bodied privilege is basically ignored - not even denied, it's just nobody really gives a fuck.

[goisey]

No one ever wants to sort out racism, or sexism. This is is how our whole society operates, hide the inconvenient prejudices and not bother to try and sort them out.

[turnitonagain]

Indians/ Filipinos in Dubai as just one example. Also China and black people. That’s nothing to do with white people.

No one said white privilege is the only form of racism or that it doesn’t exist everywhere.

People looove to point out other groups’ bad behaviour as a means of deflecting their own. Are you saying Britain should compare itself to racism against migrant groups in a country that runs on indentured servitude?

[OverTheRainbow88]

@noblegiraffe

Telling white working class kids in, say, Great Yarmouth that they, with their lack of educational and work prospects are privileged because a black kid in London, a place they may never have been to, is more likely to be stop and searched there is completely bloody irrelevant to their lives and experiences. It’s not going to make them suddenly feel better about their shit prospects is it? Or feel differently about race.

Teaching white privilege isn’t about making white working class boys feel better about themselves. Sometimes things are hard to hear, and yes the colour of their skin makes them privileged even if their ‘social class’ doesn’t.
Also, I think you are underestimating those boys and how they may respond- which is a major issue with teaching white working class boys, low expectations and aspirations from teachers and family.

I also don’t Know any teacher that would teach white privilege as a fact and then not facilitate a discussion on it. It’s a way of opening up a discussion which kids can draw their own conclusion on. Some might think oh yes I get that, others might think it’s a load of rubbish but have thought about it.

[turnitonagain]

Also, I think you are underestimating those boys and how they may respond- which is a major issue with teaching white working class boys, low expectations and aspirations from teachers and family.

Indeed. When Gandhi visited factory workers in Lancashire and explained the hardship Indians faced in comparison to their own, many of them supported his cause.

[chomalungma]

Since when is male privilege or straight privilege taught in school? We don’t teach boys that they are inherently privileged and should feel guilty about it. We don’t teach straight people that either

It's a message that comes through from life. Children heat the messages all the time. Gender pay gap, feminism, equality discussions. Children hear the messages that men have advantages and women face barriers.

Maybe we should ask why sexism isn't discussed more in class and the barriers women face.

Equality issues and barriers people face should be discussed. But as we all know - when you're accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression.

[chomalungma]

And attempts to have a discussion get shouted down, spun and deliberately misinterpreted.

A simple request to have more diverse authors on a curriculum created outraged headlines in the broadsheets about forcing Cambridge to decolonise the curriculum.

inews.co.uk/essentials/daily-telegraph-student-forced-cambridge-drop-white-authors-story-wrong-99956

The Daily Telegraph has admitted that a front-page story which claimed that a Cambridge student forced the university to drop white authors in order to “decolonise” its curriculum, was incorrect.
The paper published a correction for the article, headlined “Student forces Cambridge to drop white authors”, which was accompanied by a large picture of Lola Olufemi, Cambridge University Student Union’s women’s officer.

A massive front page picture of the student - which was followed by abuse on social media.

Some people and powerful media really don't like the idea of equality and use all their privilege and power to suppress discussion.

[queenofknives]

@jdoejnr1

I would recommend a book called Cynical Theories which explains it much better than I can on MN.

If anyone's interested we will be discussing this book in feminist book chat at some point soon. We are currently reading The Coddling of the American Mind.

It's clear that CRT is highly politicised and shouldn't be taught as fact in schools. Check out Evergreen to see where the privileging of CRT in education ends up.