So it's illegal to teach the idea of white privilege as fact now. I guess that's the same for male privilege, class privilege etc

[chomalungma]

It's got to be hard to discuss racism, sexism, class advantage to pupils and to discuss how that can be overcome without directly teaching about white privilege, male privilege, class privilege as fact.

Maybe they could offer alternative views?

This is the debate on Black History Month - which is a fascinating read

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-10-20/debates/5B0E393E-8778-4973-B318-C17797DFBB22/BlackHistoryMonth

And the Government view

"Lots of pernicious stuff is being pushed, and we stand against that. We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt. Let me be clear that any school that teaches those elements of critical race theory as fact, or that promotes partisan political views such as defunding the police without offering a balanced treatment of opposing views, is breaking the law"

So parents can discuss it with their children, but teachers can't discuss it

[SarahAndQuack]

I really didn't intend to jump on you at all. I found your use of a particular word made me think harder about what bothers me in this whole debate. I'm sorry you felt picked on. It wasn't my intention at all. Maybe we can move on?

[UpHereforDancng]

I didn't realise the government took that view - how ridiculous!

For what it's worth, I came across this brilliant 'opinion' statement on my DD's TikTok yesterday:

vm.tiktok.com/ZSxoRGHR/

[SarahAndQuack]

@BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache

I don't agree "born this way" should be taught as fact in school either, fwiw. It's a (layman's sense) theory (as I don't believe it has actually been scientifically proven, being as that would be a smidge unethical) that is heavily influenced by appealing to religious people in the US.

YY, this is something at the back of my mind too, which was why I notice that parallel between race and sexuality.

[GroundAlmonds]

@BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache

I don't agree "born this way" should be taught as fact in school either, fwiw. It's a (layman's sense) theory (as I don't believe it has actually been scientifically proven, being as that would be a smidge unethical) that is heavily influenced by appealing to religious people in the US.

I agree and there’s no need is there?

You just teach that devaluing someone for their choice of romantic partners or for their skin colour or heritage is irrational, unfair, unacceptable and medieval. You teach the awful ways discrimination manifested historically and évents in the long slow struggle to overcome prejudice and gain legal equality and protection. You encourage empathy and compassion. It’s not complicated.

[Alexandernevermind]

I just think, if the general public, or MNers can't agree on the stance then what the hell chance have teachers got?
When I was at school I was bullied by a group of Pakistani girls following me around calling me white slag, white trash etc, was this racist bullying?. A teacher telling me about white privilege at that stage would have gone down like a lead balloon. On leaving school I applied for a job at the local hospital, the application said if you are white you needed x y z qualification to get an interview, however if you were ethnic minority you would be offered the interview regardless. I understood why and applied elsewhere, but in these more enlightened times when we are making a huge effort to be inclusive and none judgemental, is it helpful for our children to feel judged by the privilege they were born into?

[Fink]

We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege

So presumably they'd be ok in us teaching our black pupils about white privilege? I only have one white child in the year group anyway, so she could sit it out. Except I don't need to teach my black kids about white privilege because they see it and live with it every day.

[ForestDad]

@inchyra

Anyone who thinks white privilege is a thing has never been to Asia where they believe

We’re not intelligent because we’re inbred
We’re sexually incontinent
We’re amoral
We smell of shit (because we use loo paper rather than washing)
We’re alcoholics
We’re violent when even a little pissed
We only bathe once a week on a Sunday evening
We don’t rinse soap bubbles after washing our dishes which is why
Our food tastes bad

Many more prejudices I’ve probably not been told about.

Statistics regularly show white British working class boys are consistently under-achievers at school, despite the so-called privilege of their skin colour.

Hi inchrya,
What does "sexually incontinent" mean?
Is there any bit of Asia you are referring to specifically?

[Cam77]

I agree with the concept of white privilege though the details and nuances are very much up for discussion and vary significantly from one country to another. As opposed to the concept of racism it is extremely complex and shouldn't be taught in schools, as most teachers would fail to grasp the nuances, never mind the pupils.
Also I'm sympathetic to the view that the use of the term "privilege" in the term is a poor choice. I know what it means but it is very easily misinterpreted (purposely and otherwise) and a millionaire middle class white kid/Asian kid etc telling some poor council estate white kid that he is "privileged" isn't going to create have them opening their ears.

[Cam77]

@OverTheRainbow88
Trouble is that it is only the chattering white middle classes and minority groups who use the term. A vast swathe of ten million or so under the cosh white families (in the UK) dont have the time, energy or inclination to listen to wealthy white university educated columnists (or wealthy black/Asian columnists) to berate them about how privileged they are. (of course not in all ways - white working class kids do worse than any other demographic). Tackle the huge wealth/class divide in the UK first and then you might get the majority of working people giving more of a shit about the plight of minority groups.

[noblegiraffe]

So I assume everyone that supports this will also be onboard with the idea that whenever we talk about misogyny or sexism we will also present the alternative view....? Because somehow I get the idea that balance only seems to be necessary when it's a racism issue.

No, this is nonsense. Of course schools talk about racism. We teach about tackling discrimination, we tackle discrimination and racism among the students.

If people want teachers in schools to be telling white working class kids (and everyone else, of course, but I will focus on them because they are the lowest performing large ethnic group in schools) that they are privileged to be white and to think about just how lucky they are in comparison to their (probably much higher performing) ethnic minority classmates, then we need to be damned sure that it will actually make them less likely to be racist.

Ignoring the concerns of white, working class people around issues like race and immigration seems to have caused more of a division in the country, not less. It arguably led to Brexit.

I don't think the issue of class v race is settled at all.

We can and do talk about and tackle racism in schools, but until you've cleaned swastika graffiti off desks, I don't think you appreciate how careful we need to be with the narrative we are giving kids and how that will fit with what they are hearing elsewhere. We cannot half-arsedly introduce academic concepts into schools and hope for the best.

[SarahAndQuack]

That makes sound sense.

[Devlesko]

I'm so glad, as coming from a white race experiencing racism on a daily basis on a level and sometimes worse than Black people, I welcome this.
You don't fight racism by division and lying about people of a different colour.
Yes, some white people don't experience racism, many black people are privilaged too

[NoSleepInTheHeat]

You can't have sexism without male privilege,
You can't have racism without white privilege
Not sure I agree, there is racism against white people and sexism against men.

[turnitonagain]

Still waiting for those quoting the poor performance of white working class boys in school, is there any evidence of what this means for lifetime earnings?

You can’t eat A-Level grades.

[noblegiraffe]

Lifetime earnings shown by level of qualification

Degree or equivalent: £1,819,792

Higher education: £1,384,448

GCE A-level or equivalent £1,233,024

GCSE grades A-C or equivalent £1,022,112

Other qualifications £978,848

No qualification £873,392

[OverTheRainbow88]

If people want teachers in schools to be telling white working class kids (and everyone else, of course, but I will focus on them because they are the lowest performing large ethnic group in schools) that they are privileged to be white and to think about just how lucky they are in comparison to their (probably much higher performing) ethnic minority classmates, then we need to be damned sure that it will actually make them less likely to be racist.

Depends how you teach it. I wouldn’t stand in front of the class and say the white kids are privileged etc, but, I would show images to get them thinking about the issue and lead a discussion about what white people may take for granted... Such as... plasters for their skin, etc loads of things I bet they’ve never even thought about as it’s the default.

[OverTheRainbow88]

many black people are privilaged too

Of course they are. But skin colour isn’t that privilege.

[amusedtodeath1]

White previlige is I term I don't like, it comes across as an accusation, whereas white advantage has more neutral connotations. I don't deny that white people have an advantage, but it's not white people as a group who create this, it's racists who create it by judging people with dark skin to be less than paler people. Most white people I know would never judge someone on their skin colour, it's a stupidly illogical way to decide if someone is a threat or not.

We need to focus on the people who cause this unfairness in our society by focusing on racists not white people in general.

We have to work together to make this country a fairer, safer place for darker skined people and we won't achieve that by alienating people who are not the problem.

[OverTheRainbow88]

it's racists who create it by judging people with dark skin to be less than paler people. Most white people I know would never judge someone on their skin colour, it's a stupidly illogical way to decide if someone is a threat or not.

White privilege isn’t just about being judged on being a person of colour. It’s about white always being the default colour. Black kids often can’t find a tv character they can relate to that looks similar to them, a plaster to match their skin tone and so on.

[Mintjulia]

Given the high number of poor white boys who leave school with no qualifications and feeling they have no future, I agree that the concept of white privilege shouldn't be loaded on to their shoulders, they are too young.

Positive discrimination to support bame\women\lgbtx is valuable, but intentionally undermining a section of teenage society who are already struggling, isn't helpful, it's divisive and will cause more problems than it solves.

[Devlesko]

Of course they are. But skin colour isn’t that privilege.

Neither is it for some white races either.

Which one of these is still acceptable racism.

"No Blacks/coloured" "No Irish", "No Travellers/ Gypsies".

I'll give you a clue, it's not Black/coloured as this was understandably made illegal as racist.

[silentpool]

I have put this entire subject on ignore. I'm tired of being berated.

Sorry but you've alienated people with this. I've lived in a lot of places and I think some of those who constantly carp about this place, should go and live in some non-Western or less developed countries for comparison purposes. This will allow you to experience the utter "perfection" elsewhere. I await your findings, after you kiss the tarmac at Heathrow on your return.

[SarahAndQuack]

But then how do you explain the fact that big organisations that claim to want to be anti-racist, still manage to discriminate during hiring? Or any number of other instances of bias?

I think if we reduce the problem to 'the racists' and assume 'the racists' make up a minority of white people, progress is going to be very slow. Because every time someone doesn't hire the angry black woman because, y'know, I dunno, she was qualified but not quite the right fit ... they're going to be able to justify it by saying they're not racist.

[Devlesko]

Oh, and some black privilege is because of colour.
I know people in the Arts who complain about being the token Black, out of their depth and wishing they'd become successful from their own merit, not the colour of their skin.