So it's illegal to teach the idea of white privilege as fact now. I guess that's the same for male privilege, class privilege etc

[chomalungma]

It's got to be hard to discuss racism, sexism, class advantage to pupils and to discuss how that can be overcome without directly teaching about white privilege, male privilege, class privilege as fact.

Maybe they could offer alternative views?

This is the debate on Black History Month - which is a fascinating read

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-10-20/debates/5B0E393E-8778-4973-B318-C17797DFBB22/BlackHistoryMonth

And the Government view

"Lots of pernicious stuff is being pushed, and we stand against that. We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt. Let me be clear that any school that teaches those elements of critical race theory as fact, or that promotes partisan political views such as defunding the police without offering a balanced treatment of opposing views, is breaking the law"

So parents can discuss it with their children, but teachers can't discuss it

[LadyWithLapdog]

Devlesko - blimey. Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.

[Blueberries0112]

@BigFatLiar

It’s like this, a court room full of men deciding if abortion is murder

You'd probably get the same sort of issues for this with a court room full of conservative women. Some men are pro-abortion, some men against, many on the fence.

It just means no women get to share their inputs (conservative or not) because men think they know better than the women who have to go through it.

People had always got to decide for other people because they think they know better. Basically superior. White Churches taking Native Americans away from their family . People who can hear forbid sign language from deaf people (Milan 1881 when a group of hearing people got together and decided ban sign language although without a single input from deaf) the list goes on. they had privileges because they had powerful people (mainly because of population) who can enforce their one sided view.

[Pelleas]

Teaching children about privilege as a concept isn't the same as telling them they are privileged. I think it's important and should be taught.

[user1471565182]

ahhhh love freedom of speech that lot, until they dont.

[user1471565182]

'your an idiot'. Snigger.

[LadyWithLapdog]

@user1471565182 yes, I noticed that as well. I can only assume the poster was so incandescent that the oversight was the equivalent of spitting and foaming.

[Devlesko]

Sorry, not the wrong side of the bed, just something I'm passionate about. As a society we have spent too long addressing racism to no avail.
I can't stand all this division that makes other groups/races say what about us then.
As I keep saying and I'm sounding like a broken record I know, but racism isn't necessarily about colour, it can be but it is what it says RACEism not colourism.
Dividing it into black and white does nothing to help.
There are so many ethnic minorities who experience racism that is almost accepted by society, or brushed over.
Enough is enough, we don't need slogans and labels of privilege, we need solidarity in tackling racism against anyone irrespective of colour, or race.

[LadyWithLapdog]

Devlesko good thing then that you’re not calling everyone who thinks differently an idiot. Given you’re so hot on solidarity.

[Devlesko]

I think anyone who thinks racism can be tackled by a misleading and meaningless title is an idiot, yes.

[LadyWithLapdog]

You’re funny and wrong but have it your way. I don’t fucking care.

[chomalungma]

I always find it fascinating to hear how people - especially women - talk about male privilege and there's generally little push back on that. There is the 'not all men' but it generally seems to be accepted that men do have advantages in society and less barriers than women do (in certain areas). All things being equal, a man has an advantage over a women - even though there may be other things going on that give them both barriers that they face.

But mention white privilege and suddenly the idea of privilege vanishes.

It's interesting talking about white, working class boys.

Such a group are spread around the country, in deprived parts of the UK which tend to be mainly white areas, as well as being found in inner cities etc. Whereas black, working class boys are much more likely to be found in your inner cities.

So it's going to be hard to compare 'like for like' as educational funding is massively different in certain parts of the country.

If educational outcomes are what people talk about - then look at the educational outcomes of black working class kids and white working class kids in the same area e.g. London, Hartlepool or one of the poorer towns.

Then look at the issues such pupils face in that area - a white working class boy and a black working class boy in Goole for example. Who is going to have more barriers there?

If people believe that structural racism and structural sexism exist, and if people believe that unconscious everyday racism and sexism exist, then how can you overcome that - because if one group is denied something or faces more barriers because of their ethnicity or their sex, then another group has advantages because of their ethnicity or their sex.

[noblegiraffe]

I always find it fascinating to hear how people - especially women - talk about male privilege and there's generally little push back on that.

You’re kidding, right? Or have you just not been looking for it?

Half the backlash about modern feminism is from men kicking off about how shit they have it but no one cares. That ‘Jess Phillips laughing about male suicides’ (edited) video that went round is a good example.

[LangClegsInSpace]

[quote Flaxmeadow][/quote]
That's a good speech. It's definitely worth watching the whole thing.

Excellent posts BiBabbles

[chomalungma]

Half the backlash about modern feminism is from men kicking off about how shit they have it but no one cares. That ‘Jess Phillips laughing about male suicides’ (edited) video that went round is a good example

I should have said little push back from women. In general, the idea of male privilege on MN seems to be accepted.

Yet white privilege isn't. By the same people who accept male privilege is a thing.

That takes some cognitive dissonance.

[noblegiraffe]

I should have said little push back from women. In general, the idea of male privilege on MN seems to be accepted.

I don’t think you can assume that the few posters on this thread challenging the existence of white privilege are also over on the feminist section talking about male privilege.

Do you think that the impact of white privilege overrides that of class? I’m not sure why it’s a competition.

[SoVeryLost]

@noblegiraffe

Telling a bunch of white, working class boys who are the lowest achieving main ethnic group in England that they have white privilege is possibly not the lesson you might hope it to be.

As a fellow teacher I’m really disappointed in the fact you quote this but not the rest of the data. Black boys are twice as likely to be excluded from school, they are twice as likely to be stopped and searched (in London, 28 times in Brighton) and twice as likely to get a custodial sentence.

Yet still they still do better at school than white boys whose education is less likely to have been disrupted by exclusion. There are reasons why white boys aren’t doing well at school but the fact they fail with the cards stacked in their favour certainly doesn’t disprove white privilege.

[chomalungma]

Do you think that the impact of white privilege overrides that of class? I’m not sure why it’s a competition

I think that people have privileges / barriers in many areas of life - and there are many aspects to someone's identity that have this impact.

I was listening to a black lawyer on the Radio last week. He was saying how the way he dresses affects the way he's perceived and how people act around him. He was on the tube wearing a hoodie over his head and people draw their handbags towards themselves. Then he was in his suit after a day in court, on the tube, and a complete difference in how he was perceived.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nlkj

It's not a competition. Lots of barriers exist - and different barriers exist. There are people who face barriers because of their class, their ethnicity, sex, sexuality, disability.

[OverTheRainbow88]

Class is fluid though but race isn’t.

[noblegiraffe]

As a fellow teacher I’m really disappointed in the fact you quote this but not the rest of the data

I wasn’t quoting anything so there wasn’t a ‘rest of the data’ that I left out of my quote. I was making a point which remains valid. Telling white working class kids in, say, Great Yarmouth that they, with their lack of educational and work prospects are privileged because a black kid in London, a place they may never have been to, is more likely to be stop and searched there is completely bloody irrelevant to their lives and experiences. It’s not going to make them suddenly feel better about their shit prospects is it? Or feel differently about race.

They may well say something about the black kid in London being more likely to be a gang member/criminal and that’s why they’re searched. And where’s your conversation about white privilege helping you there? Nowhere. You’re going to have to get onto a proper discussion about root causes of racial inequality instead of banging on about privilege.

[chomalungma]

Telling white working class kids in, say, Great Yarmouth that they, with their lack of educational and work prospects are privileged because a black kid in London, a place they may never have been to, is more likely to be stop and searched there is completely bloody irrelevant to their lives and experiences

Do you think you should talk to those kids in Great Yarmouth about racism at all? Should you teach them that there has been (and is) racism in this country and that people from different ethnic backgrounds experience whilst white people are far less likely to experience it?

[chomalungma]

They may well say something about the black kid in London being more likely to be a gang member/criminal and that’s why they’re searched

Where do you think they would get the impression about that?
Media messages
Media reporting
Portrayals on TV, in film.

[noblegiraffe]

Do you think you should talk to those kids in Great Yarmouth about racism at all?

I’ve made it pretty bloody clear throughout this thread that we should be talking about racism and discrimination in schools.

I don’t think that approaching it via the concept of white privilege is the right way to go about it. I have made the point several times now that minimising the issues faced by white working class communities (and calling them ‘privileged’ will be seen as that) has not made the country more tolerant of minorities and has seemingly achieved the opposite.

If you want white privilege taught as fact in schools to kids no discussion, where is your evidence that this will tackle racist attitudes?

And if you don’t think it will, what is your argument for spending squeezed curriculum time on it?

[chomalungma]

I’ve made it pretty bloody clear throughout this thread that we should be talking about racism and discrimination in schools

So how can you talk about racism, about the effects of racism, when you've made it clear that these effects are irrelevant to those pupils - and when you talk about racism, the message is that those white pupils will have an advantage.

Basically, white privilege is the elephant in the room. There are people who want get racism, who understand the effects of it but don't want to say that there is white privilege.

It's like people don't want to name it.

[LadyWithLapdog]

Totally agree, Chomalungma. All these contortions to avoid naming it for what it is: white privilege.

Children do know about it and by avoiding it or scoffing or rolling your eyes you will come across as out-of-touch and irrelevant.

[chomalungma]

If you want white privilege taught as fact in schools to kids no discussion, where is your evidence that this will tackle racist attitudes

You can certainly state a fact and discuss something and change attitudes.

I find that a very strange point from a teacher.

Climate change is a fact. It is discussed in class and attitudes are changing

People don't just say 'there's climate change. It's happening' and then move on.

There have been programmes on sexism in school. Looking at how boys and girls are treated in class. It's discussed with the children and behaviours change - with noticeable effects.

Probably much harder in a school with few children from minority backgrounds - but you'd still agree it's important to discuss and change behaviours?