So it's illegal to teach the idea of white privilege as fact now. I guess that's the same for male privilege, class privilege etc

[chomalungma]

It's got to be hard to discuss racism, sexism, class advantage to pupils and to discuss how that can be overcome without directly teaching about white privilege, male privilege, class privilege as fact.

Maybe they could offer alternative views?

This is the debate on Black History Month - which is a fascinating read

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-10-20/debates/5B0E393E-8778-4973-B318-C17797DFBB22/BlackHistoryMonth

And the Government view

"Lots of pernicious stuff is being pushed, and we stand against that. We do not want teachers to teach their white pupils about white privilege and inherited racial guilt. Let me be clear that any school that teaches those elements of critical race theory as fact, or that promotes partisan political views such as defunding the police without offering a balanced treatment of opposing views, is breaking the law"

So parents can discuss it with their children, but teachers can't discuss it

[BeyondsConstantBangingHeadache]

I think the difference with white privilege, as opposed to male/het/class privilege, is that it varies by culture. Happy to be corrected here of course! But while all cultures that I can think of are biased towards male/het/upper class - and may indeed be preferential towards their own race (eg Asian countries as mentioned above) - they are not all biased in favour of one race. Iyswim?

[Stompythedinosaur]

Telling a bunch of white, working class boys who are the lowest achieving main ethnic group in England that they have white privilege is possibly not the lesson you might hope it to be

White privilege isn't a concept that exists to make white people feel bad, that is a total misunderstanding.

And it is fully possible to experience privilege due to one factor of your identity and oppression due to another at the same time. I can have white privilege whilst being oppressed on the basis of my gender.

I'm surprised that it should be a particularly shocking concept to anyone that there are ways life is easier if you are white - it is glaringly apparent. That isn't my personal fault, but as a white person I do have a responsibility to work towards a fairer society.

[BiBabbles]

I think we should frame privilege as a lens of analysis, not a fact.

We should discuss concepts within the branches of critical race theory and other theories that use it the same as social theories within the different branches of other social theories like Marxism, social constructionism, network theory, and, yes, feminism.

Privilege, in this context, is a catch-all term within some social theories used to describe and analyse certain ways social systems advantage some and disadvantage others, originally for discussions at the population level, but more and more brought down to the individual level especially in popular culture discussions.

I think there are risks to saying privilege is something someone has or not. It's not something we own. It's not something that is part of us. It's not something that should be taught to be part of a person's identity or sense of self. Privilege is a function of social systems, I cannot see any benefits in making it individualistic.

I don't want social theories taught in schools without proper instruction and balance. I don't want them teaching privilege as fact anymore than I want them teaching 'X is a social construct'. I'm all for social sciences in schools, but it needs to be taught well with these terms clearly defined and discussions on how they're misused or this will backfire. In fact, there is evidence that teaching white people that they have white privilege doesn't make them any more compassionate towards anyone else, it just makes them less compassionate towards other white people in less fortunate circumstances.

[chibchibpapa]

So I assume everyone that supports this will also be onboard with the idea that whenever we talk about misogyny or sexism we will also present the alternative view....? Because somehow I get the idea that balance only seems to be necessary when it's a racism issue. We would never ever say to a group of girls that a men who argues sexism doesn't exist has an equal voice to women who argue it does. So I find it pretty horrifying that we are suggesting that white privilege is now just a matter of opinion. Makes me very sad to see this kind of discussion here time and time again.

[lilacmoon78]

@Elsiebear90

I think people are not understanding what white privilege is, it’s not that you live a charmed life because you’re white, it’s that your skin colour does not make your life harder. The same as when you’re straight your sexuality does not make your life harder.

exactly this

[noseresearch]

Anyone who thinks white privilege is a thing has never been to Asia where they believe

I think you’re showing your ignorance, you think those negative stereotypes are bad - do you know what they think about (and treat) darker skinned people. Asia has an extreme colourism issue, being as pale as possible is very desirable. The skin lightening industry is huge

[AIMD]

So is that saying that teachers can discuss white privileged with students but not teach it as if it is fact?

[CayrolBaaaskin]

I don’t think it’s meaningful to say all men benefit from “male privilege“ or all white people benefit from “white privilege”. It’s just not true. People have radically different lives within those groups. You could say that the groups as a whole are privileged but there will be many people within that group who do not benefit from that or benefit in different ways. In addition, different racial groups benefit from privilege too depending on the country and situation.

[SarahAndQuack]

YY, white privilege isn't a cast-iron guarantee nothing in your life will go wrong, ever.

I don't follow this post: By saying critical race theory is political opinion it means we need to present a balanced view as opposed to something like homophobia where it is to be robustly challenged.

Critical race theory is a framework for thinking about race, just as gay rights movements have provided frameworks for thinking about sexuality and feminism has provided frameworks for thinking about gender. They're all political opinions. It's also a political opinion that homosexuality is wrong, or that black people are inferior. How can you make a difference between them?

[GroundAlmonds]

It’s completely correct that education should be factual and balanced. There is a lot of excellent work done in schools about equality and prejudice. Unproven SJW theories aren’t needed.

[noseresearch]

Also, the example of white working class underperforming in education is definitely true but it’s also interesting to note despite ethnic minorities being over represented when it comes to achieving top grades, and more going to university - they’re still not proportionately represented in top jobs.

Also, there was a study in the UK finding candidates applying for jobs with equivalent CVs, education etc - the individual with the White British was more likely to be shortlisted.

Again, this is why I don’t buy it’s as simple as “but not all white people are privileged, some have harder lives than x/y/z” - it’s that the colour of ones skin isn’t holding them back

[SarahAndQuack]

@GroundAlmonds

It’s completely correct that education should be factual and balanced. There is a lot of excellent work done in schools about equality and prejudice. Unproven SJW theories aren’t needed.

I don't know what you mean by 'correct'. To me 'correct' as a term implies some kind of neutral quality, but you're making a polemical statement here; it's not neutral. You may think it's ethically right that education should be factual and balanced, but that's not the same as 'correct'. And 'correct' is meaningless in this context, except to give a veneer of impartiality to a statement that can't be impartial.

It really worries me that people think this sort of thing, and that people think education should be factual. Facts are important, god knows, but in my view education should be about teaching children to think and evaluate those facts.

[noseresearch]

Despite my previous posts (I do believe white privilege exists), as a pp said I also don’t think it’s helpful to tell people they have straight/white/male privilege - as it all it usually does is turn them away from your argument and make things awkward

[BigFatLiar]

I think the problem with it now is that it can come across as being white is something to be embarrassed about. If we're telling children that they're privileged because they're white we're almost making it about them as individuals.

[ktp100]

In my experience, people who don't think white privilege exists don't even know what it is.

Same with cultural appropriation.

Yet more ignorance, really.

[BiBabbles]

There alternatives to this part of critical race theory isn't racism. It would be alternatives within critical race theory to the individualistic interpretation of privilege, and there are other social theories that discuss and analyse this on population, community, and individual levels.

Similarly, the alternative to concepts within radical feminism theory is other voices in radical feminist theory, other feminist theories, and other social theories that discuss oppression, not sexism. And so on with any type of oppression and social dynamic.

While some of its proponents might want to act like CRT and this interpretation of privilege is the only game in town willing to discuss these issues, that these are the facts and no one good would question this and anyone who does is a racist, there is a lot more going in the social sciences on these topics even with the issues in academia like the replication crises making things difficult.

For some, these are political opinions, but in school they should be taught as lenses of analysis.

So is that saying that teachers can discuss white privileged with students but not teach it as if it is fact?

That's how I read it.

[GroundAlmonds]

I don't know what you mean by 'correct'. To me 'correct' as a term implies some kind of neutral quality, but you're making a polemical statement here; it's not neutral. You may think it's ethically right that education should be factual and balanced, but that's not the same as 'correct'. And 'correct' is meaningless in this context, except to give a veneer of impartiality to a statement that can't be impartial.

It really worries me that people think this sort of thing, and that people think education should be factual. Facts are important, god knows, but in my view education should be about teaching children to think and evaluate those facts.

It worries you that I (& others) think that curricula should be factual? Seriously? You can’t see why theory shouldn’t be taught as fact? How odd.

Maybe it’s harder to see the danger when the subject in question is something fairly benign like critical race theory (although @noblegiraffe raises some reasonable concerns about white WC boys). Can’t you see, though, that if teaching newly minted social theory as fact becomes permissible, that could open the door to much worse things?

I CBA to address your objection to the word “correct” in detail, but if you don’t believe there are fixed principles about what type and quality of information is taught or included on a syllabus, I wonder what you do envision.

[GroundAlmonds]

@ktp100

In my experience, people who don't think white privilege exists don't even know what it is.

Same with cultural appropriation.

Yet more ignorance, really.

I think you’re missing the point.

The last time I checked (I’m big a scientist), evolution still had to be taught, explicitly, as “the theory of evolution“.

Learning to distinguish belief, ideology, myth, opinion & fact from each other is an important part of education. That’s not a criticism of any belief.

[GroundAlmonds]

I’m NOT a scientist^

[Nickname01]

While I agree white/male/class privilege exists, and is helpful to understand that your whiteness etc doesn’t make your life any harder.
I think the word Privilege completely turns people off in the real world.
If you are telling a class of white working class students about their privilege, it’s easy for them to think about their life and where they live and think what fucking privilege, and disengage them from the whole process.

[SarahAndQuack]

That's not what I said. You've misquoted and therefore misunderstood.

I hardly think you can call critical race theory newly-minted?

And no, I'm not suggesting it should be taught as fact (as is obvious if you read what I'm actually saying, rather than deciding we must be at loggerheads just because I engaged with your post).

[inchyra]

@BiBabbles Excellent posts. I may just cut and paste and send to the DC’s school.

[SarahAndQuack]

Cross post, @GroundAlmonds, and based on your last of 10.33, I really think you've jumped the gun in deciding I must be disagreeing with you and so you need to misquote me in order to prove it.

I really don't think there's a need to fly off the handle when someone responds to you in this way. It's symptomatic of what's wrong with our society, that we can't seem to have a discussion without people assuming it has to be polarised and anyone who responds to you must be categories as enemy or ally, nothing in between.

[HBGKC]

"You can't have racism without white privilege."

Why not, OP? Is all racism perpetrated by privileged white people?

I agree with the PP who said that privilege is one (of many) lens of analysis.

[inchyra]

Surely the very concept of ‘privilege’ perpetuates a superiority complex amongst those privileged groups?