You have the first three years not to screw your children up, time out is damaging, and so is leaving little ones to cry it out

[Lardlizard]

Hwre

Totally agree with this guy

@Ylvamoon pleased he is doing well! Funny how triggering I find posts like this so many years later! I obviously still feel guilty!

Personally I think being told to time when you feed the baby’s is standard advice. And advised way to early

It may have been when you had your DD but it isn’t standard advice now- I had DD 4years ago, DS 2 years ago and DD2 a week ago- advice was the same for all- feeding on demand (which they now call responsive feeding, but it’s the same thing), and the importance of responding to your child when they cry, doing skin to skin etc, is all recommended. They have been saying ‘at least every 3 hours’ to me with DD, but that’s to make sure she doesn’t sleep through feeds when she needs them while she’s so tiny, it’s not meant to be prescriptive.

I agree with you about crying it out and time out not being ideal- though do think with crying at night that if you have a child that just won’t sleep, controlled crying can sometimes still be the best overall option for the family- the parents need sleep to function otherwise the rest of parenting falls out the window as you’re too shattered to do anything.

It’s just an odd thing to post in such a stark way, you’re basically saying ‘hi strangers on the internet, just a heads up you may have already screwed your kids up if you haven’t been doing what this guy is telling you to do’- given the key message is meant to be about building good relationships, being kind and empathetic at different stages of your child’s development, it seems ironic to me you’re happy to try and make other parents feel a bit crap, sorry if that wasn’t your intention but it comes across that way.

Also I do wonder how much intensive parenting these experts have really done. I read Alfie Kohns ‘Unconditional parenting’, and while I do agree with a lot of what he says- some of his examples of his interactions with his own kids are just so unrealistic and scream of someone who has dropped in for an a few hours on a Sunday morning to bestow some ultimate wisdom before jetting off back to their high flying career. Maybe that’s unfair, but anyone can be a good parent ‘most’ of the time, it’s when you do it day in, day out, 24/7 that’s it really tests you.

(And I’m not talking about 24/7 meaning being a SAHM, I work too, just in case that read as if I was saying only SAHMs have it hard!!)

I work in substance misuse, my partner is a probation officer. I can tell you now 100% that being put on time out as a child was not the route of their problems.

It really bugs me when people talk about children in absolutes. They're not robots,they're not problems to solve. It's not do x,y,x and the result will be a.

All children are different, personality,generic makeup,neurological differences etc.

Of course there are some basic things that they all need like food,care and comfort/love.

However what works for one child,or even most children won't work for every single child.

Adapting to their needs and what they respond to is the way to go,whatever that means.

Dealing in absolutes ,magic formulas and refusing to accept other way because "I'm right" is what can possibly damage a child and other issues being absent.

I was fine at 1,3,5. The issues started at about 8 when I didn't neatly fit in the box that my mum assigned to me.

Yes PP exactly- people forget how much genetics plays a huge role. For every anxious, nervous child I see there is n anxious, nervous parent sitting g right next to them and for every confident boisterous child a similar parent.

So CIO and naughty step are going to have a hugely different affect on the innate nature of those children.

@N4ish These are also very Western parenting strategies. It's not done like this everywhere in the world. I'm from another culture and the stereotype we have of Westerners is that they're cold towards their children - putting babies in a different room to sleep, leaving them to cry, ignoring toddlers when distressed, sending kids off to boarding school (I know that one isn't so common these days), making them leave home as soon as they're 18.
People saying "well we all turned out fine"...is that true though? A huge percentage of people in the Western world suffer from depression and anxiety, despite having a far higher standard of living than other countries where being depressed/anxious is virtually unheard of.
I'm not saying that's because people were left to CIO as babies, that's too simplistic, but surely something about our "normal" isn't right.
Also, if your baby is crying all day long there's usually an underlying issue, babies don't cry for no reason and the answer isn't to leave them to CIO

Totly agree @ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble
My dc needed very different handling
Ie saying sorry
Dd would say sorry instantly whether she meant it or not and usually carry on what she was doing wrong ie talking in class
Ds would need to be able to think about, thenhe would come back and you would get a genuine sorry.

They developed so differently Dd gradually with new words every day ,whereas ds would have weeks of frustration then become an expert overnight
I always just muddled along with each child until I found what works for them. I am more than happy with the adults they turned out

I agree with a lot of it but I do make my son do time outs. The trouble is nobody says what they actually do instead when there child hits/kicks/bites/snatches toys/throws things across the room.

One positive parenting book I read said the child wouldn’t do any of the above if I watched him play/played with him by his rules for 30mins plus of uninterrupted time a day. Guess what he still did all of those things.

Another good thing about time out is it stops me screaming at him or hitting him so I consider it a plus really. (Just to clarify I have never ever hit him)

@ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble

It really bugs me when people talk about children in absolutes. They're not robots,they're not problems to solve. It's not do x,y,x and the result will be a.

All children are different, personality,generic makeup,neurological differences etc.

Of course there are some basic things that they all need like food,care and comfort/love.

However what works for one child,or even most children won't work for every single child.

Adapting to their needs and what they respond to is the way to go,whatever that means.

Dealing in absolutes ,magic formulas and refusing to accept other way because "I'm right" is what can possibly damage a child and other issues being absent.

I was fine at 1,3,5. The issues started at about 8 when I didn't neatly fit in the box that my mum assigned to me.

This is a very good point.

He’s not saying he’s perfect, and I agree it’s more to do with a cultural thing rather then individual
And yes there are far high term rates of depression and mental illness in the west than in other parks of the world

And what he suggests you do instead of time out is time in
Yes it takes longer
Yes it requires more patience
But the overall effect in the long term will be worth it

I must admit though I did have a Bit of a battle axe For a hv, even 13 years ago peddled dangerous advice

So many of these parenting gurus give advice as if a parent has only one child to concentrate all their time and attention on. I'd love to hand them five kids under eight and see how they get on - sometimes parenting is less about 'loads of attention' and more about firefighting your way through the day.

And none of mine have joined a gang. Despite all being brought up the same, some have been easier than others. I think a lot of how your child turns out is down to them, rather than to you, but I guess that's hard for a parenting guru's ego to take.

it’s just an opportunity for others to open their minds and benefit form someone else’s expertise and experience
That’s all
He even says himself several of his children have been Diagnosed adhd which he believes is due to childhood trauma and he feels that fact he was a workoholic damaged his kids
So his advice imo it’s coming from a place of purely trying to help others

He even says himself several of his children have been Diagnosed adhd which he believes is due to childhood trauma and he feels that fact he was a workoholic damaged his kids
Yeah.. that's not how it works.

So his advice imo it’s coming from a place of purely trying to help others

Why isn't his book and all the advice available for free then?

So his advice imo it’s coming from a place of purely trying to help others

But by the sounds of it, his advice/ experience is in retrospect... I think we can all tell ourselves what we would do differently once we have had time to think about our approaches and choices. That's just life.

And what he suggests you do instead of time out is time in
Yes it takes longer
Yes it requires more patience
But the overall effect in the long term will be worth it

My children are adopted and we’ve always done “time in” but that’s in the context of having children whose attachment patterns have been impacted by early trauma and for whom time out would be really challenging.

Discipline takes place in the context of the whole relationship with your children, and is actually a relatively small, but important, part of the relationship. Where children have secure, responsive relationships with their parents using strategies like time out can be tolerated and helpful if it gives the child and the parent space to breathe. Time out isn’t in and of itself harmful, it’s the whole of the relationship that matters - I’m guessing that those young folk who went on to join gangs, get involved in offending and substance misuse had much more going on in their families than the use of time out as a punishment. In fact I’m not guessing, 25 years in child protection tells me there’s always much more at play.

Gabor Mate is well respected in his field, and his work with addiction is particularly insightful. I doubt though he himself would suggest that use of time out alone results in insecurely attached children in a healthy family dynamic.

Adhd

There’s loads of free stuff of his online
If you are interested

Sometimes it’s just worth opening your mind
It’s not saying parents are wrong
It’s saying parents but instincts are right but it is our society that is wrong

Gut

He says his views are time out are sending the message that your love is conditional

Listen to his views on it, he’s a hell of a lot better at explaining than I am ! 🤣

Haven't RTFT but Gabor Mate is a proper psychologist, specialising in trauma and is also ADHD himself. Has published lots of books and is well respected.

He even says himself several of his children have been Diagnosed adhd which he believes is due to childhood trauma and he feels that fact he was a workoholic damaged his kids

So he has no idea what he is talking about then, as ADHD is not linked to childhood trauma.

Anyone can set themselves up as a parenting guru, just look at that awful Sarah Ockwell- Smith , no qualifications other than homeopathy.

I cannot tell you how much I loathe that woman.

Ugh. Threads like these need to just be deleted. So much judgement from so many people, and I think it's just raising unnecessary anxiety for mothers. Everyone is trying to do their best for their child and for their family at the end of the day. None of these points (controlled crying, time outs) can be taken in isolation. Sleep deprivation can have catastrophic effects on the mental health of some women, for example, and can in turn affect the marital relationship and the parent's ability to actually parent, leading to adverse consequences in itself. Maybe a few weeks of a controlled crying regime is actually more beneficial to everyone in the long run.

And @peanutbutterfries, writing about your cousin who has the audacity to hire a live-in nanny - get a life! Stop judging other women and get off your high horse.