Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

@Coronawireless

As long as teachers on all sides preach hate and disrespect, unstable people will respond with violence.

That teacher was encouraging a discussion about freedom of speech. Only extremists see hate & disrespect & anyone who thinks that violence is an appropriate response is part of the problem.

But let's never never forget there are many factions and many beliefs and the kind of batshit person that thinks it's ok to behead someone for 'disrespecting' their religion is no better than a gang member. Ffs I don't owe these people respect any more than I do anyone else.

THESE PEOPLE. Not all Muslims. If I was islamophobic I have a pretty hard time of it given I live in a fairly mixed part of London and my neighbour in this building and his wife are both Muslim.

There are many millions of perfectly lovely Muslims and there are many millions of horrid little misogynistic men who just love going to the mosque and hearing how men are far superior to women and Muslims are far superior to other religions.

I've heard some shocking anti semitism and homophobia from people I thought were pretty westernised and I fucking hate both of those things. Ive also seen racism towards black people which I also fucking hate. And I've witnessed and experienced a lot of insidious but low level misogyny. A lot. From the ordinary man on the street type.

In defending any of the traditional forms of Islam you are 100% condoning the killing of gay people, and the belief that caused the grooming gangs (still going strong thanks to everyone not wanting to be islamophobic and want to be the worst of the woke) and the oppression of women and anti semitism. So consider that you must respect this religion if you want - but own your misogyny, homophobia and anti semetism instead of pretending to be tolerant.

You want to stop the teacher from teacher, rather than the terrorist from beheading

I don’t want to stop a teacher from teaching about free speech; absolutely the cartoons should have been used as an example in the correct context. I don’t agree that the cartoons should have been published however because I know how it impacts on people. Just because you can say it, doesn’t mean you should. I don’t believe unnecessary harm should be caused for innocent people.

Do you realise how powerful these evil minds must be to convince someone to go and behead someone? How intensive the brainwashing tactics must be? Grooming them and then convincing them that everyone they know and everything they have ever believed is false. What on earth are Muslims supposed to do when these extremists think we are absolute scum, we are kafir to them and they kill us too!

I have no knowledge of any Imaam or mosque that preaches any hatred - this is all very underground stuff that is obviously kept very well guarded. I was under the impression radicalisation mainly takes place online. This is a job for the counter terrorism office, not Muslims.

No need to hurt people if you don’t have to.

Holy shit.

You are terrifying.

Even so, you have had a conversation with me, despite my alleged aggression. But unfortunately your side of the conversation has basically been victim-blaming and defending terrorism. So yeah, it probably doesn't feel super-comfortable for you, I can see that.

the left have embraced and defended Islam and the people who push it on to others

If someone cannot see the difference between not wanting all Muslims to be treated as extremists and 'embracing and defending' Islam, they don't want to see it.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the OP but there are views being expressed in this thread that worry me as much as hers.

ust because you can say it, doesn’t mean you should. I don’t believe unnecessary harm should be caused for innocent people.

The staff at CH were also innocent people though. Just because YOU don't think they should have published those cartoons, doesn't make them any less innocent.

@queenofknives
I don’t support or condone terrorism or murder.

@Purplesphere see my previous post with quote pointing out "45 per cent of Britain’smosques and nearly all the UK-based training of Islamic scholars is Deobandi sect" which is extremely conservative.

"The advice section of the website of Mufti Muhammed ibn Adam al-Kawthari, one of the Deobandis’ leading British-born, UK-trained Islamic scholars, gives a flavour of this group’s approach to living as a Muslim in the West. One follower posts a question asking whether it is permissible to wear a tie to work if asked to do so by one’s employer. The scholar says it is permissible but warns that it is better to ‘avoid the dress of the unbelievers’, so the wearing of the tie should be confined to work. Women followers are advised that it is necessary to cover their faces in ‘normal’ situations and that it is generally impermissible for them to travel a distance of more than 48 miles unless accompanied by a male relative (even if the purpose is to attend a religious gathering)"

I’m not Muslim either by the way.

[quote Coronawireless]@queenofknives
I don’t support or condone terrorism or murder.[/quote]
Well, you have on this thread. You called the victim a hate speaker, for a start. I hope in real life that you're not as awful and morally lost as you've come across here.

Yes, Purplesphere, and not saying something because you are afraid of the consequences means that freedom of speech has been stifled. You are no longer free to speak because 'harm might be caused to the innocent'. Please be very clear that the harm is not caused by the cartoon nor the odd crazy fanatic but by the community of parents who incited the youngster to commit murder. Maybe they should consider behaving in a way that does not harm innocents? Maybe not direct violence towards the innocent teacher? Where is the outcry from the rest of the community? This should be resoundingly condemned by everyone in a civilised society.

No I have not condoned murder on this thread or anywhere.

@unmarkedbythat I definitely take your point about religions in general. I'm atheist or mildly C of E at best and apart from all but the least prescriptive softer versions find religion appalling.

But even the quite mild versions of Islam are pretty strict. I don't know many Muslims who will hang out with non Muslims for example. Or who would be comfortable with someone gay, or Jewish. Only the more extreme (and not very common) forms of Christianity are like that (I consider most of these cults pretty much). The message to some people is just too appealing. "You are the most moral, and the best, because you are Muslim". Power is very corrupting as we have seen in the church.

And people are entitled to their religious beliefs - I don't care if you don't like my dog or go to the pub. But it's a very political religion, there seems to be a message in there (to the men) that they should seek power within the system. Why?

I would consider extremists to be very much in the minority. But there's a lot of ordinary people getting caught up in that in between zone of entitlement where they want all the good stuff but to live a life based on idealogies that are hundreds of years out of date.

@Coronawireless

As long as teachers on all sides preach hate and disrespect, unstable people will respond with violence.

The term "hate" in this situation is ridiculous. The teacher was teaching critical thinking and history

@Purplesphere you are quite correct that as a Muslim statistically you are most at danger from these people. I'm just amazed that the wider Muslim community doesn't shut any of this down before it gets even close to starting. I know parents worry about their boys being radicalised.

But it appears to be incredibly difficult to stop that in between zone of pretty conservative Islam out in the open - no one wants to speak out about it.

This killing wasn't one madman. It was a scheming and vindictive teenager, and her loudmouth entitled father and his equally entitled cronies working themselves up into a frenzy. No one stopped it. Just the same as no one stops those awful taxi drivers despite their grooming being supposedly against Islam.

Except it's not because those girls are kaffirs too and sex slaves are allowed apparently.

@stairway

If anyone wants an example of an islamophobic post I think MarriedtoDaveGrohl has kindly produced an excellent example.

What did you find phobic about her post? She stated that there are many different types of muslims.

We're not allowed to point out that there are a huge number of conservative Muslims in Europe that are regressive, homophobic, misogynistic and hateful to 'non believers', without being accused of 'Islamophobia' and 'tarring all Muslims with the same brush.'

There is a bill being developed in France tackling this 'separatism' because it is such an enormous problem - but @Purplesphere I suppose you still maintain that there are barely any Muslims who hold such views as to clash badly with western progressive society.

Queenifknives I was just giving one example of islamophobia. I’m not sure what your going on about. Why are you implying I want to do any of those things to her? Presumably because you are assuming I’m a Muslim. I will give an explanation why it is islamophobic. The long if the short of it is someone who doesn’t actually know the religion at all listing all the crimes she has seen in the media carried out by a Muslim and blaming it on the religion but that is ok because she thinks there are many kinds of Muslim apparently ( replace the word Muslim with Jew or black) Nobody likes collective blame.

Presumably because you are assuming I’m a Muslim.

Not at all. I didn't presume that and my points are about freedom of speech, which you have been arguing against. Are we in the same conversation? I'm not making any points about Muslims in general except that like anyone else of any other religion they can't go around beheading people who say things they don't like.

Nobody likes collective blame.

I think some people are seeing collective blame whereas others feel they have clearly made a distinction between terrorists and extremists and ordinary Muslims, though a third argument has been put forward that a substantial percentage of ordinary Muslims do have some sympathy with this sort of extremism. I don't know how accurate that is. Either way, it is not the collective fault of Muslims that there are extremists and terrorists within the group term Muslim and that should be clear to everyone. It is unfortunate if someone's main knowledge of Muslims is through the news where the Muslim community seem to be represented either as poor downtrodden victims or as crazy terrorist sympathisers and nothing in between. The vast majority of Muslim women and some Muslim men I have met have been lovely but I still believe that there are problems both with the religion and with religious extremists. That doesn't make me Islamophobic.

My arguments on this thread have been in favour of free speech. I am surprised that people have wanted to defend the terrorists and have derailed the discussion onto Islam, but it seems that the anti-free speech arguments depend on a strawman, which is to say that the pro-free speech posters are Islamophobic, and so there the argument goes, into the weeds.

The heart of the matter is whether or not people have the right to speak, teach, write and make art according to their own ideas and beliefs and conscience. I say they do - regardless of what those ideas and beliefs are or how close to my own values a person is guided by their conscience. Some on this thread believe that people shouldn't have a right to do this in case other people are offended by it and are forced to murder or hurt them in retaliation.

@stairway I'm not assuming you are Muslim. In fact I'm assuming you're not because your views are exactly the kind of apologist for anything that assumes that racism is only perpetrated by white people, that the only bad religions are white ones, and that people from small villages in third world countries share the kinds of 'tolerant' (actually intolerant) views you don't - when you couldn't be more wrong.

I've met plenty of people like you. You hang out in very niche circles. It makes you feel warm inside to think you are more virtuous than others. Hence throwing around accusations of islsmophobis the second anyone says anything at all. Bet you're partial to a bit of Israel bashing too. Loudly proclaiming it's not anti semitism.

'Yet Muslims suffer the consequences of said retaliation within society.'

What do you mean? It is a Muslim who has killed a teacher for promoting free speech but you seem to be saying that Muslims are the victims IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE. It makes no sense.

'There is then free speech made as a consequence of the actions of said extremist , where Islam is depicted as a backwards religion with evil followers - once again Muslims suffer the consequences of said free speech caused by extremists within society.'

It would be wrong, as you say, to depict all Muslims as backward as a consequence of this particular act of brutality but this particular act WAS backwards and evil. It is right and proper that it is seen as such. It is not freedom of speech that is the problem here.

Also free speech is not 'a consequence of said extremist'

Free speech is considered a human right in France and in England.

The way you have expressed this suggests that you are conflating 'free speech' with 'criticism of Islamist terrorists' in such as way as to present this as wrong rather than the act of terrorism as wrong.

Lots of people find depictions of gay couple offensive, including muslims. Should that be banned?

@queenofknives
“Some on this thread believe that people shouldn’t have a right (to free speech) in case other people are offended and are forced to murder...in retaliation.“

Again, no. Wrong on both counts.
I said on this thread that people should have a legal right to free speech. What they choose to do with that right however is a different matter and it shouldn’t be abused.

I also said that it’s likely that anyone who murders someone because they are offended is unstable. Goading such people is not helpful, not least because they may take their anger out not only in you but on innocent third parties. No man is an island.

Free speech, sure, but think before you speak. Especially when you’re in a position of authority to young and impressionable students.

None of the above means that I think that that teacher, the father of a 5 year old, deserved what happened to him. No one does.